Joined: 29 Dec 2006Posts: 12Location: Wiltshire, UK
Hello all!
I have been reading this site with interest for several months now and decided it was finally time to register and make my own grievances with Orange known. I personally*HATE* Orange passionately (I have had dealings with them over the years on both isp and phone basis) as a company and was not pleased when they took over Wanadoo.
I am currently on a 1Mb fixed serice and I used to be on the 2Gb monthly cap package so I did some research and decided at the time to move to Zen, so I called up Orange and quite nicely just explained that their 2Gb cap was insufficient and could I please have my MAC code. They responded by offering me the up to 8Mb unlimited package for the same price with wireless and talk and send me a live-doorwedge which is sitting happliy in a cupboard not bothering me!
All well and good, I've been happily on an umlimited 1mb service for over a year, great for lots of downloading etc.
Now last month, I received a letter from our benevolent friendly ISP, WanaFreeOrange who were a little upset that I had downloaded about 120GB in one month. The letter went on to say about reducing my usage immediately or they will take action etc and that anything over 50Gb was harmful to other users.
So I had a look at the terms and conditions on their website and the fair usage policy - which I have always adhered to (I never cane my line during their peak hours!) so I was somewhat annoyed with them that my unlimited package is now suddenly 50Gb.
Has anyone else encountered this situation as yet? If so what action have you taken? I am minded to write back to them and say 'you show me where unlimited means 50Gb and I will obey it otherwise go fourth and multiply' and see what they say.
Also on another note does anyone have any knowledge of when us fixed line users are going to be regraded to ADSL MAX on non LLU exchanges? Here in sunny Wiltshire my exchange is fully maxed and even Tiscali have an LLU presence yet here I sit on a little 1Mb line.
I have read several posts about WanaFreeOrange not upgrading anyone to MAX without them requesting it and locking them in to another 12 month contract. I will not be doing that, I am also tempted to phone them up and tell them to give me my 8Mb max without a 12 month contract or I will be moving ISPs (I know a lot of you will tell me to do that anyway but everything else aside my line has been totally reliable with my Netgear sitting on it so I am in no hurry to move if I can pursuade them to give me a Max service (should be about 4Mb) and resolve the 50Gb limit).
So does anyone have any definate answers here about the regrades?
So I had a look at the terms and conditions on their website and the fair usage policy - which I have always adhered to (I never cane my line during their peak hours!) so I was somewhat annoyed with them that my unlimited package is now suddenly 50Gb.
A lot people mis-interpret what the FUP actually says. Sure it does ask you to be considerate about downloading during offpeak where you can but it's the following section which is the important part.
Fair Use Policy wrote:
What will happen if my use is very high?
If you only occasionally have very high usage, we're unlikely to be concerned unless it becomes a regular occurrence. If this does happen then we'll get in touch to help you find ways to reduce your usage.
If your usage continues to be very high, we'll get in touch again. Ultimately, if your usage still remains excessive despite our attempts to help you reduce it, we may have to suspend your service and possibly close your account.
Notice this part only refers to high usage, not when it's being used. Purely from a business standpoint, why would you keep a customer that is costing you more than you get from them? Though I do agree moving the goalposts and not telling what they are is a bit shoddy.
Quote:
Also on another note does anyone have any knowledge of when us fixed line users are going to be regraded to ADSL MAX on non LLU exchanges? Here in sunny Wiltshire my exchange is fully maxed and even Tiscali have an LLU presence yet here I sit on a little 1Mb line.
Last I read it was if you're on 2 meg fixed, then you get auto upgraded to Max within, now, 4 months. That may still be in place or it may have changed, not 100% certain on that now. Those not on 2 meg I have no idea about, the article didn't mention them at all.
Quote:
I have read several posts about WanaFreeOrange not upgrading anyone to MAX without them requesting it and locking them in to another 12 month contract. I will not be doing that, I am also tempted to phone them up and tell them to give me my 8Mb max without a 12 month contract or I will be moving ISPs (I know a lot of you will tell me to do that anyway but everything else aside my line has been totally reliable with my Netgear sitting on it so I am in no hurry to move if I can pursuade them to give me a Max service (should be about 4Mb) and resolve the 50Gb limit).
If you want to get Max now then yes, it would put you into another 12 month contract to do it on the member centre.
Now here's part of the problem from the rest. Technically you're a "superuser", though I'm not certain if you'd be listed with only a warning. Often if you call up to try and get the additional 12 months contract voided or try and get a better deal they'd simply not offer you anything at all. Again why reduce the revenue they make from your service when they're already losing money on the deal. As for the usage, they probably won't even consider that at all.
Officially Orange say 80% of their users use under 2 gig a month, so your 120 gig can easily be seen as very high compared to what the average is.
Joined: 29 Dec 2006Posts: 12Location: Wiltshire, UK
Hello Elhana!
Thanks for the reply.
I don't think you are entirely correct about misinterpretting the FUP.
The text of it is quite clearly worded, 'if you only occasionally have very high usage, we're unlikely to be concerned...'
My gripe is that I read it clearly and made sure I understood it, and as I said I never abuse the line during peak times, i'm not a bad customer.
Its more the fact that out of the blue this magic 50Gb figure just appears. I want an unlimited package because I want to download a lot of data and for them to turn round and say well actually its not an unlimited package in a very indirect way is somewhat underhanded. Im sure you are correct and like all ISPs on BTs network they get billed on a throughput basis and I surely don't wish them any grief but at the risk of sounding like a git, its not my problem, my contract with them is for unlimited throughput unless otherwise stated, which it is not.
With regard to the 2mb fixed line regrades, I was technically on the 2mb package but only able to receive 1mb as my line has over 45dB downstream attenuation so it falls short of the 42 or 43dB for 2Mb qualification.
Either way thats immaterial, I am now on the up to 8Mb package. I have been reading your posts about the 6 month period to regrade 2Mb users and I really just wondered if there was any update, but like you last I read it was within that 6 month window starting in November. Orange seem to be really dragging their feet offering Max services compared to other ISPs even though the infrasturcture is in place.
Nowhere does it state in the terms or FOP of a limit, just high usage. What is high usage nowadays with streaming,big downloads,etc. I don't see how an Unlimited package can have a limit, or change its name from unlimited.
I can't see how Orange can enforce a limit it does not state anywhere, I try to be considerate and schedule any high usage during off peak times like overnight.
Users are being warned about usage and even having their account ceased when they are not aware Orange have a limit as they have kept it to themselves.
Yeah I know it's crappy thing in that it's marketed as unlimited but isn't. Not much we can directly do about it.
Generally those who go over 50 gig a month ought to know they're downloading a lot, as it can take some effort to get to those sorts of usage.
AFAIK the usage figures I've seen before have all been averages so they'd be taking at least 2 months worth of usage into account and I remember some where it was stated they were over the course of 3 months.
As I said before there's not much we can do directly about it. I'd expect Orange had a team of lawyers go over the wording to make sure it's ambiguous but still enough that they can use. It could be legally challenged I suppose but few people have the means to do that and anyway I'd expect Ofcom to look into that sort of thing so it rules on the industry as a whole.
Anyway the warning communication is supposed to let you know you've used too much, though of course that slips through the cracks sometimes like everything.
I understand that but I can't see how they can tell users they have used too much or gone over the limit if that limit is not stated anywhere.
The Unlimited package is liable to challenge in its name alone. I can see people, me included, being cut off without getting an email as Orange email is a bit unreliable and for exceeding a limit we didn't know about.
What have they got to hide? be explicit with a limit if there is one so the customer knows what not to exceed and has no argument if they do.
I had an email from Orange that said there is no limit as such, how could they then take action?
Joined: 29 Dec 2006Posts: 12Location: Wiltshire, UK
It concerns me that I might run in to this problem again and without warning they will suddenly * my account off now so I am trying to make an educated guess about how much I download. Also by the sounds of it the first the user knows about it is when they get an email to say that they have closed the account. It is then too late to do anything about it.
Joined: 29 Dec 2006Posts: 15Location: South East England
50gb is quite alot of downloads! so i don't think its unreasonable for Orange to say this is their "Fair Usage Policy" and I know what your saying about only going over it in 1 month but you said you had downloaded 120GB thats more than double th FUP.........
if you were caught driving at 140Mph on the motorway what would happen?
Joined: 29 Dec 2006Posts: 12Location: Wiltshire, UK
That's not really the point of my argument which was initially that no figure was ever mentioned in their documentation about what constitutes a fair amount of data.
It could be 10GB or 100GB or even a terrabyte, they simply do not tell you. So I was surprised when they suddenly told me that 50GB was fair.
Your analogy about driving of the motorway at 140MPH is not a good example - the highway code states that 70MPH is the speed limit so therefore if I drive at anything over that it is my own fault if I am caught speeding.
If on the other hand the highway code simply said that you are legally required to drive at a sensible speed. There would be chaos. Some people would claim 70MPH was reasonable whilst others might claim 140MPH. Just think of the legal issues there, the courts would be mayhem.
If WanaFreeOrange state in their T&C documents that you have 50GB per month to play with I would have happily complied with that. As Elhana said, its a bit unfair of them to suddenly move the goalposts - thats the source of both my own and glenhill's annoyance. Its not even a case of us not reading the small print because it simply is not stated.
Skafen is correct. The point is Orange do not state anywhere in their terms & conditions or FUP that their is a limit and what it is. I cannot see how Orange can enforce a limit that they do not tell customers what it is.
Orange should be upfront and let customers know that their is a limit on the 'Unlimited' package so at least we know. It does include uploads as well as downloads.
[quote="Elhana"]Yeah I know it's crappy thing in that it's marketed as unlimited but isn't. Not much we can directly do about it.
The Fair Use Policy is at best ambiguous and at worse very questionable. As many have indicated it quatifies nothing. Follows is text of complaint that has been lodged with Advertising Standards Agency in relation to Oranges approach to the term Unlimited.
The product is advertised as unlimited download but subject to a Fair Use Policy. The Fair Use Policy which follows is ambiguous and misleading:
Quote:
Fair Use Policy for Broadband
If you're on either our unlimited or uncapped broadband service then our Fair Use Policy applies to you.
Why have one?
Well it's designed to make sure your broadband service is fast and reliable whenever you use it.
Some of our broadband customers use file sharing software and download large files like music and videos. This uses up lots of network capacity leaving less available for you. If they're doing this at peak times, it could mean that the speed of your broadband service will be affected.
Am I likely to be affected by the Fair Use Policy?
If you don't use file sharing software or download large files from the Internet it's unlikely you'll ever be affected by this policy. If you do, all we ask is that you do so considerately, perhaps by downloading outside the peak hours of 6pm to 11pm.
What will happen if my use is very high?
If you only occasionally have very high usage, we're unlikely to be concerned unless it becomes a regular occurrence. If this does happen then we'll get in touch to help you find ways to reduce your usage.
If your usage continues to be very high, we'll get in touch again. Ultimately, if your usage still remains excessive despite our attempts to help you reduce it, we may have to suspend your service and possibly close your account.
We don't want to do that, and with your support and goodwill we'll work with you to see if we can avoid this happening.
Last revised 14 February 2006
Definition of UNLIMITED - (a) without limits or bounds, (b) not restricted, limited or qualified.
Definition of LIMITED - (a) having a limit, restricted, confined, (b) without fullness of scope (c) restricted by policy or regulation.
By implementing their Fair Use Policy to an advertised Unlimited Download internet product, Orange has placed bounds, restrictions, and qualifications as per the definition of UNLIMITED. By implementing a Policy which threatens to take action against any user on this package should they exceed an acceptable download each month, Orange have restricted, confined, denied fullness of scope and applied a regulatory policy which all by definition as indicated above are LIMITING factors.
Further, Oranges Fair Use Policy is ambiguous. Even given that it was not a limiting factor it fails to quantify, in terms of Gigabytes, what is an unacceptable download rate each month. Were this to be quantified then it would further substantiate the case that this product is being advertised as unlimited and is therefore misleading.
I do not agree/disagree with the Fair Use Policy. Protecting the business against people who download large amounts of data is acceptable but in my opinion not in this manner. From the content of the complaint above there does appear to be limiting factors to there unlimited product. It will be interesting to see what the ASA make of this.
Well I have received a letter the other day advising me I had used over 40GB in a month, in breach of the fair usage policy. Seems like the limit has suddenly dropped by 10GB. Funny how many providers (Sky for one, although they have other issues entirely) state 40GB is their limit for the Mid range products, I dont possibly see how 40GB equates to unlimited, and this strikes me as being in contravention of the trade description act.
IF the FUP (fair usage policy) had stated within it that 40GB was the limit OR if the package had been labelled has a 40GB capped product I would have no issue. As it was I rang Orange up to complain and even the customer services advisor could not justify the FUP. I then spoke to an exceptionally arrogant supervisor who refused to listen to the complaint, or to discuss the issue. Several times I asked them to show me where 40GB was mentioned in their advertising, FUP, or T&C and they could NOT do this. With TV over ADSL, video streaming and other such services on the horizon, 40GB is a miniscule allowance.
Personally I will never purchase anything to do with Orange in the future and would advise anyone who was thinking of doing so to reconsider on the basis that you wont get what you pay for. Additionally I have complained to the Advertising Standards Authority (about the usage of the term unlimited), trading standards and to the Internet Services Providers' Association and would urge others in the same boat to do the same.
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