I thought you might be interested in the following email, sent today to Orange customer service. Sorry it's rather long - but I don't do short when I'm really, really p***ed off. Oh, and thanks to the poster who provided the Orange customer support email address.
***
I am about to begin the process of looking for another ISP for my broadband needs. Please let me tell you why.
I lost my broadband connection on Monday afternoon. I called your broadband technical support line. Part of the pre-recorded message told me that Orange were aware that a number of customers were experiencing problems, that Orange were working to resolve them, that there was an unusually high call volume and that I should not continue the call unless my problem was urgent. I concluded that my problem was therefore likely to be at the Orange end of my broadband connection rather than mine, and that it would be best to wait to see if the problem was resolved overnight.
It wasn’t. I called the technical support line from my office on Tuesday morning. They told me that they were unaware of any service problems, that the problem must be at my end, and that they couldn’t help me until I was at home sitting in front of my PC. Fair enough – although the person I spoke to was unaware of the problems referred to in the pre-recorded telephone message.
I returned home, and discovered that the problem was ongoing. All four PCs (connected via a (non-Orange-supplied) Thomson Speedtouch 580 modem/router) were still displaying the same message: “Unable to display page”.
I rebooted the modem/router – twice. I went to the configuration pages for the modem/router to check that none of the configuration parameters had become corrupt. They hadn’t. All the lights on the modem/router indicated that everything should be fine: the LAN, DSL and Internet lights were all illuminated. I ran the diagnostic on the modem/router, and it revealed no problems, confirming that the DSL connection was live.
I called broadband technical support, and told the person I spoke to that everything checked out fine – so the problem must be at the Orange end. He categorically denied this and told me that, as I wasn’t using an Orange-supplied modem, he couldn’t help me and that I should talk to my modem supplier. This call lasted twenty or more minutes – at whatever expense an 0870 call to your technical support line costs.
I decided to try another approach to confirm my suspicions. A year ago, I replaced a – fully-working – Speedtouch 510 modem/router with its wireless equivalent, the Speedtouch 580. I retrieved the 510 from the loft, installed it, checked it out as above – and still had the same problems. The 510 was ‘known good’ when I’d de-installed it, so the fact that I still couldn’t get a web page to display on any of the four PCs confirmed to me that the problem was either at the Orange end, or with the BT line. The fact that both modems confirmed they were getting a DSL signal told me that this was indeed an Orange problem.
I called your broadband technical support line again. Now, events started to take an entirely bizarre turn. The lady I spoke to was both charming and courteous – as your call centre staff in India or wherever often are – but incompetent beyond belief. She confirmed her colleague’s position, that this was in no way an Orange problem. She would, however, try to help me.
Would I unplug my router from my modem and just attach my PC directly via the modem? No, I explained, I can’t do that: they’re physically the same box. “You’re not understanding me,” she said. “You need to unplug your modem from your router and attach the PC direct to the modem.” I repeated that this was not possible, as I was using a combined modem/router. “That’s incorrect,” she said. “There is no such thing as a combined modem/router”. Can you hear me starting to lose patience with her at this point? I repeated my previous statement. “Would you please hold for a moment while I check with a colleague?” she said. A couple of minutes later, she was back. No apology, no admission that she was wrong. “I can give you the router settings if you want,” she said. “But the problem isn’t with the router,” I replied.
“In that case, we can’t help you. Goodbye.”
“So, you’re telling me that this is not an Orange problem, but my problem?”
“That’s correct. Goodbye.”
By now, I’ve spent forty-five minutes or more on the phone to your technical support line – at what cost I’ve yet to find out - and another Three hours trying various approaches to diagnosing the problem without success.
Imagine, therefore, my amazement this morning to find that all four PCs were now happily back on line – despite no-one having been near them. Truly, there must have been some black magic in the air while I slept – or perhaps, more likely, the problem at the Orange end was resolved? Who knows?
My experience raises several issues about the quality of your customer support. First, let me tell you that you have my sympathies: dealing with an enormous range of customers, in terms of PC literacy, is obviously challenging. However, my expectation would be that a technical support person should know more than I do – and I’m no computer whiz, just an everyday guy who uses PCs a lot. I have yet to come across anyone at Orange broadband customer support who gives me the impression they know more than I do.
The issues are as follows.
1. It is not unknown for broadband ISPs to have 0800 numbers for customer support lines. I can only imagine that companies like Orange elect to use 0870 numbers a) to dissuade customers from calling because of the expense, and/or b) to make money from customer support. There is no question in my mind that dissatisfaction with Orange broadband customer support (which, if you trawl the web, is widespread) is partially as a function of the fact that, not only is it utter rubbish – it’s expensive utter rubbish. I’d be more prepared to accept rubbish customer support if I wasn’t paying through the nose for it.
2. The suspicion that using an 0870 number for customer support as a revenue-generating strategy seems to be confirmed by the training given to support line staff. It seems that everything they do/say is designed to prolong the length of the call. I’m now used to
- an inordinately lengthy set of menus to get to where I want to
be
- an unnecessarily involved security process
- operators asking my first name, then using it
- rephrasing/repeating everything I say
- confirming to me what they’ve done or agreed will be done or
that I will do
- asking if there’s any other help they can give me
- thanking me for calling Orange
Don’t get me wrong: in a highly stylized way, the majority of your support operators come across as courteous and friendly. I have yet to find one, however, who inspires me to believe that he/she had anything other than the most rudimentary grasp of PC or networking technology. The fact that they are patently following a script may give Orange management a sense of a quality process – but in fact, it ends up being hugely frustrating for your customers.
3. Anyone who tells me that they’ve moved their call centre to India in order to offer better customer support is obviously having a laugh. Everyone knows that it’s a cost cutting measure. The fact is, though, that charming and courteous as the operators may be, English is not their first language. They struggle to understand me – so goodness knows how they get on with someone less well-spoken – and for sure I struggle to understand them. Communication is very poor – which is both frustrating and, in terms of extending the length of the call, expensive. A key element in my search for my next ISP will be that their call centre is in the UK – and that their operators will have a minimal level of competence, and not come across as very courteous but highly trained monkeys.
4. What is least forgivable in the above miserable, annoying, frustrating saga is that at no time would anyone I spoke to even countenance the possibility that the problem was at the Orange end – despite the fact that Orange broadband service problems have received extensive coverage of late, despite the existence of the pre-recorded message noted above about known service problems and despite my detailed explanations of what I’d already done to try to diagnose the problem – which, I would have thought, would have been interpreted by anyone with even a small amount of knowledge to conclude that perhaps I had a case, and they should look into it.
So what am I looking for?
An acknowledgement that I have received poor service would be a start. An apology would be better. I would also like you to give serious thought to some kind of recompense for my trouble: the 36 hours of broadband downtime that were Orange’s fault, the money wasted on expensive calls to the support line – and my time. A ‘free month’ would be an acceptable offer, and might cause me to reconsider whether or not to change ISPs.
I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.
Yours faithfully
***
I'll let you know what response, if any, I get. I'm not holding my breath.
It so annoys me when agents won't touch problems when you're using a router or modem not from Orange. Especially when you've checked the router to make sure it's showing connected, theres a bunch of basic checks that can be done. Oh and the one who said there was no such thing as a combined modem router, obviously not livebox trained at all.
Although it could have been Orange's end where the problems were it could equally be local work being done by BT causing the outage, which can sometimes be hard to check on or even just some freak random loss of connection.
It's true that they run the helplines on an 0870 number to generate revenue, there is no real reason why they'd pick that number other than that. But that revenue doesn't even cover the wages of the staff you speak to unless there's really long queues which they do try to avoid.
Though not in those words you've come close to describing a lot of the call structure, it's done that way for a reason it makes good sense in most occasions, sometimes a few corners can be cut but it depends.
Agents don't try and prolong the calls, in fact their average call length is monitored and they're penalised for repeated excessively high averages and excessively low ones too which show they're not doing their jobs right.
Elhana, thanks – interesting stuff. Yes, I guess it could have been a BT problem – but I believe Orange are supposed to know about any work being done at an exchange that would affect service. They’ve certainly been able to tell me about that on previous occasions. No, I’m sure the telephone number doesn’t generate enough revenue to cover costs – but it still compares poorly with companies who use 0800 numbers (not just ISPs): I may make calls from work, so they don’t cost me anything as such, but I really resent paying a lot of money for such poor service. Yes, I hear you on the call structure thing, and I can see some sense in it – but when you’re angry and frustrated, it really grates. They should perhaps have their agents give you a 20 second ‘PC literacy’ test at the start of the call – and then determine how best to handle it… I feel for those call centre people, I really do. But Orange have to take the responsibility for the impact of moving their call centre to India, to charging for calls and for inadequately training their people.
Elhana, thanks – interesting stuff. Yes, I guess it could have been a BT problem – but I believe Orange are supposed to know about any work being done at an exchange that would affect service. They’ve certainly been able to tell me about that on previous occasions.
Checking that stuff has always been flakey, it's gotten better recently though. Used to be the BT system we used to check for maintence on a specific line didn't work 80% of the time.
Quote:
They should perhaps have their agents give you a 20 second ‘PC literacy’ test at the start of the call – and then determine how best to handle it… I feel for those call centre people, I really do. But Orange have to take the responsibility for the impact of moving their call centre to India, to charging for calls and for inadequately training their people.
Every agent quickly gets to the point where they agree there ought to be a computer literacy test before customers signup. Sometimes it's really bad, having to explain how to press shift to get the @, how to right click things. Worst ones are the ones who believe they're 100% right and argue their points until you convince them to just try what you want. It's quite satifying to prove you aren't some clueless voice on the other end of the line.
Thankfully the majority know the basics needed.
The issues of training and getting the right knowledge to the right people is improving through, unfortuantly it all takes time and callcentre staff turnover is usually fairly high meaning it's a long running battle.
Joined: 13 Aug 2006Posts: 1689Location: Marylebone Central London
Hi Ian
I read your post with interest as my problems was very similar but i won't go into that , you said about some sort of compensation like a free month etc when i asked for my MAC code and said enough was enough i was passed on to the appropriate person who requested a MAC for me and he offered me a free month plus reduce my broadband max package by £10 to £17 99 to stay i thought at the time that was a generous offer and rang them back after thinking about it and accepted (big mistake) by then i had my MAC so they cancelled it , the thing was that i was on a free month and still the same bad service and paying a fortune to call CS and TS , so i rang CS to request another MAC i was told it will be emailed in 48hrs of course it never materialised so another fortune spent on calls to CS only to be told it would take 10 days or more nothing else i can do and literally was hung up on twice.
So my next step was to fill in a complaint form on the ISPA site to which i got an automated reply saying that my complaint had been recieved and passed on to Orange, an hour or so later i got an email off of Orange informing me they recieved my complaint and it was being dealt with about 2 hours later my MAC was emailed to me 10 days had miraculously turned into 3 hours amazing lol.
I migrated to IDNet last monday it wasn't an easy migration as it was an LLU MAC which takes longer but IDNet got it done eventually, in the brief time i have been with them they have rang me twice to let me know whats going on and check my connection is stable (i have double the speeds now too) a big difference from Orange wished ide gone earlier so if you get no joy check the IDNet site free support (no call centres) 0800 number and 1 month contract in fact anywhere would be better than what you have now lol.
Its a shame cos i was with them for 4 years from Freeserve thru to Orange
and from what ive read in all the forums and in the media its not getting any better im glad i left.
Ian i hope you get your problem sorted and some compensation
all the best
Steve
_________________ ex Freeserve/Wanadoo/Orange Blog
Steve, that's excellent - many thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I got an email back from Orange, in response to my email, telling me that if I wanted to complain or ask for compensation, I needed to snail mail them in Rotherham. Weird, or what? So I've copied and pasted the email into a letter that I'll post today, and see what happens.
I've seen numerous references to these 'LLU MAC's. That's not something I've come across. Can someone take a moment to explain to me what they're about, and why they make life more difficult?
Joined: 13 Aug 2006Posts: 1689Location: Marylebone Central London
Hi Ian
This is how IDNet explained it to me as it was my first migration
The usual MAC takes 3 to 5 working days to complete and LLU MAC takes 10 working days to complete because its done manually
in the exchange and is more work involved mine took 12 days. I think MACs are a good thing
(when they work as some providers do not accept LLU MAC codes) as theres no downtime and migration is free if you go the cease and reprovide route all in all its around 20 days downtime and an activation fee to your new provider
hope this explains
Regards
Steve
_________________ ex Freeserve/Wanadoo/Orange Blog
Thanks Steve. I did some research, as I'm a complete noob on this terminology - so now I know a little about local loop unbundling and migration authorisation codes... (although it's still unclear to me why LLU makes a difference) How do I know if my line is a LLU line?
It says "LLU Services: No" - so I guess that means that we are, for the time being at least, an LLU-free zone.
What an interesting site, by the way - but why did I have to explore it? I now find:
"There appears to a compatibility issue with your phone line. This could be caused by an existing DSL connection, ISDN, a DACS unit, TPON, a pending ADSL order or many other common issues. This will need to be resolved before ADSL can be supplied to your line."
So - I have a problem I knew nothing about...
Many thanks for your help, Steve: I really appreciate it.
Good stuff, Steve. Yeah, it says that ADSL is enabled on my phone line. Whew - that's a relief... It also says that I should be able to get up to 8MB (well, 6.5MB or above) - but Orange keep telling me I can only get 2MB...
Joined: 13 Aug 2006Posts: 1689Location: Marylebone Central London
Sounds familiar my speed never got over 2 either my speeds now average betwwen 3 and 6.5 Mb an instant difference and im only into my third day of 10 day line training period wish ide have migrated a lot earlier now.
_________________ ex Freeserve/Wanadoo/Orange Blog
Anything over 2 meg has to be supplied through ADSL Max or an LLU system. Currently Orange don't do ADSL Max so the fastest they will provide is 2 meg in an area without an LLU presence.
The differences between LLU and IPStream (BT ADSL systems) for migrations.
LLU lines for broadband go through your ISP (or a wholesale LLU operators) equipment where as a non LLU connection goes through BT wholesale's equipment. When it comes to migrations it's easy to see the problems this causes. From one BT wholesale ISP to another is pretty easy it's mainly a few records changing in the systems and sometimes altering line speed if it's different between ISP's. As it's all on the same system it's pretty quick and you don't get much downtime. LLU lines are another story, when you leave an LLU ISP they want the equipment used by that line free for another customer so the line has to be manually migrated from the LLU equipment to either LLU equipment for a different ISP or BT wholesale equipment. Either way it takes longer, means more downtime and needs engineers at the exchange to get it physically done.
There's a bunch of ISP's trying to improve the system so it's pretty close to or as fast as a BT wholesale migration, better than it was a while ago where there wasn't even an LLU MAC code system at all, if your line was LLU and you moved provider it had to be ceased and reprovided as there was no other options.
Joined: 13 Aug 2006Posts: 1689Location: Marylebone Central London
Hi Elhana
I was on LLU up to 8 meg on Orange my speeds never got over 2 meg im 70 metres from my exchange its opposite where i live Orange wasn't interested or willing to even investigate why, my line stats were all fine so with that and other probs i went elsewhere where but i cant speak for anyone else thats just my experience with them and quiet a few others by the forums ive read but now i get what i pay for.
thsnks for your input
Steve
_________________ ex Freeserve/Wanadoo/Orange Blog
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