The other point (4) about a cease already being issued for a broadband line as a reason for not issuing a MAC is not valid. Here's what the ofcom regs say in respect of this:
Cease requests and notice to terminate a Broadband Service
A1.14 The Communications Provider shall, when issuing a MAC, confirm to the End-User that any previous termination by the End-User has been revoked, and shall ensure that any current or pending termination actions are cancelled.
The way I read A1.14 is that a request for a MAC invokes a responsibilty upon the provider to ensure any pending actions are revoked.
Yes you are right and I see your point. It is possible to cancel a cease request and then issue a MAC code. However, and you might argue that this is not addressing the point, but this issue does not arise now in the way that it may have done in the past. This is because Orange require 30 days notice for a cancellation, meaning that if a customer does cancel, a date 30 days in advance is set. If a customer then wishes to request a MAC then this pending notice can be removed from the account. I accept cancelling ceases purely to issue MAC codes is not a done thing with a set process, though it is possible. I think it doesn't have a set process because the necessity rarely arises, especially now.
Also, lots of ceases get issued that are beyond the control of the service provider (i.e. BT cut a phone line off due to bill payer non-payment etc.), meaning broadband is cut off.
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I don't think you are right in including BT amongst those who will not accept a LLU MAC. Infact, none of those you mention or any ISP should be refusing to accept an LLU MAC where the customer is migrating to IPStream. To do so is against the ofcom regs as follows:
Other process developments
3.26 On 22 November 2006 BT announced the launch of a new process called “provide with MAC” which will support “reverse” migrations from SMPF to IPStream/DataStream. BT has stated that “provide with MAC” will be available to all customers to use from 21 December 2006.
3.28 As set out in paragraph 5.41, General Condition 22 will require broadband service providers (and wholesale broadband providers) to use the MAC process for migrations from SMPF to IPStream and DataStream once “provide with MAC” is fully available.
Clearly a process agreed between ofcom and BT and made part of the new MAC regs so it would indeed be strange for BT not to comply.
I think these are largely systemic problems. I have come across many cases of BT being given MAC codes that they have rejected as invalid when other providers have been able to accept exactly the same codes (format-wise). I think this is because not every provider has systems set up to accept LLU MACs in the same way as other ones. It's not that all the MAC codes are completely different, as the common factor is the same providers that accept them and the same ones which have problems with them. It's not the codes that are different (though there have been invalid codes issued as well to complicate things!) Generally it's a matter of systemic compatibility though this is decreasing compared to how many MAC's were getting rejected when providers started unbundling exchanges.
Joined: 13 Aug 2006Posts: 1689Location: Marylebone Central London
Its quite strange then how Orange constantly give out invalid MACs and going by what ive read on many forums and and my own experience with this dire company still are, but i see their reputation is getting worse and unless they stop playing games with customers paying good money for a crap service it will get worse and then you can thank the agents that read the Orange scripts and blatently lie its disgraceful after all its the customers that are spending the money.
It really seems strange that anyone with problems with Orange broadband and told by un trained TS and CS its their set up (uninstall this re-install that), that have had enough and leave they migrate to another ISP their problems disappear oh well at least Orange earn money from the phone lines.
Having said that i do realise their are genuine agents that do care but im afraid its the ones that dont are coming out on top.
_________________ ex Freeserve/Wanadoo/Orange Blog
I disagree that Orange constantly give out invalid MACs. In fact I know that Orange don't constantly give out invalid MACs because if they did, then I would spend the majority of my day hearing customers call back about it. I don't because it doesn't happen on a constant basis.
Orange have about 90 (cancellations / customer care) staff who work from 8am -10 pm every day, calls generally last a 4-5 mins and there are normally queuing calls. Virtually every call is either a MAC request or a cancellation. So that's a hell of a lot of MACs getting constantly issued. Customers who have received invalid MACs and are calling back about it are a tiny fraction of these calls. And I mean it - I haven't had a call in days from a customer who's had an invalid MAC, or a problem with one apart from expired MACs that weren't given to other providers in time. But obviously you only hear / read about the problems so, unless you've had one or are someone who's read that others have had one, it may be easy to make an assumption that this problem is considerably more widespread that, in reality, it actually is.
I mean people aren't going to post on forums about their successful migrations if you see where I'm coming from. If they've had problems however, they might search to find out others who have had as well. And the first thing I'd google is 'orange problems.'
You're right about there being agents that care and that don't . I think this is inevitable in the call centre industry though and applies across the service sector. It's hardly a well paid, career enhancing, skilled job so it's not going to attract the best workers really. And the people who are good will leave, as it isn't exactly the most demanding of jobs. I'd say this is the same across the board.
In my own personal opinion though, I think staff at the company should be paid more and be more carefully selected and trained i.e. like BT's staff are. I think this would improve things significantly. It would provide a more professional representation of the company to its customers, and also help retain the best staff, who would be less inclined to leave to seek better employment. The result would be less problems and better customer service, which I think you would agree, forms the essence of Orange's problems.
This is because Orange require 30 days notice for a cancellation, meaning that if a customer does cancel, a date 30 days in advance is set.
Yes, and a 30 day cancellation period is also invoked from the date a customer is issued with a MAC. However, the regs require that no ISP should conclude a cancellation until advised from the gaining provider that the migration has taken place. There is also a requirement for a recovery process to enable the customer to revert to their original provider if things go wrong. This, clearly, indicates a need and requirement for all providers to remain flexible in their processes.
Quote:
I accept cancelling ceases purely to issue MAC codes is not a done thing with a set process, though it is possible. I think it doesn't have a set process because the necessity rarely arises, especially now.
The set process is there in black and white in the form of the ofcom regs. The rarity of an instance is no excuse for not following these. The over riding process of all processes in respect of MAC's is not Oranges internal ones but those required by ofcom.
Quote:
Also, lots of ceases get issued that are beyond the control of the service provider (i.e. BT cut a phone line off due to bill payer non-payment etc.), meaning broadband is cut off.
I think if someone was to get cancelled because they got cutoff for not paying their bill and then complained on such a site as this, then I beleive they would be berated rather than Orange. I really think an example of this nature is way of the mark and clouds the real issues.
Quote:
In my own personal opinion though, I think staff at the company should be paid more and be more carefully selected and trained i.e. like BT's staff are. I think this would improve things significantly. It would provide a more professional representation of the company to its customers, and also help retain the best staff, who would be less inclined to leave to seek better employment. The result would be less problems and better customer service, which I think you would agree, forms the essence of Orange's problems.
I believe, and stand corrected if wrong, that a large proportion of so called Orange staff are outsourced. Any company with such an approach is asking for problems. You can not expect employee loyalty under such circumstances and it is this that has to be one of the major starting points in providing excellent customer service and support.
Yes, and a 30 day cancellation period is also invoked from the date a customer is issued with a MAC. However, the regs require that no ISP should conclude a cancellation until advised from the gaining provider that the migration has taken place.
This is exactly what happens. Once a MAC has been used by another provider, there will be contact from the gaining provider that the migration has taken place. This is when the account is closed. If there isn't contact by the other provider, the account stay open until the customer becomes aware of this (i.e. they check their bank statement). Orange will then contact BT to find out when the migration occurred, close the account and refund any surplus payments.
tvman wrote:
There is also a requirement for a recovery process to enable the customer to revert to their original provider if things go wrong. This, clearly, indicates a need and requirement for all providers to remain flexible in their processes.
If things go wrong with a migration then this is generally that the migration hasn't gone through, meaning that the customer will still be with their original provider.
tvman wrote:
I think if someone was to get cancelled because they got cutoff for not paying their bill and then complained on such a site as this, then I beleive they would be berated rather than Orange. I really think an example of this nature is way of the mark and clouds the real issues.
Some customers who have been cut off ask for their MAC's before their cease has completed (10 working days while it is pending on BT's systems), which is the point I think you are getting at. Some customers who have cancelled their services when their ceases are pending ask for their MACs before the cease on their line has completed. Orange didn't do anything wrong in cancelling their lines because a customer either specifically requested this or it occurred beyond Orange's control. So essentially, Orange have done precisely what has been asked of them by their customers (depending upon which scenario you take).
tvman wrote:
I believe, and stand corrected if wrong, that a large proportion of so called Orange staff are outsourced. Any company with such an approach is asking for problems. You can not expect employee loyalty under such circumstances and it is this that has to be one of the major starting points in providing excellent customer service and support.
I agree. What I posted was referring to the staff that aren't outsourced. I think that any costs saved by outsourcing are far outweighed (and perhaps financially outweighed, though I'd just be guessing), by customer dissatisfaction and un-necessary cancellations caused by resolvable technical issues. All retentions, most of customer support (though this is decreasing) and a significant proportion of tech support is UK based.
I think it should all be UK based in my own opinion.
Joined: 13 Aug 2006Posts: 1689Location: Marylebone Central London
Xpander check out DslZone UK Ratings scroll to the bottom and of the main ISP's which is where Orange is and read the customer comments.
I know a couple of people that used to use this forum that both had 3 invalid MACs on the trot one agent even said to one of them "What do you expect your getting your broadband free" now i dont call that good service do you? no wonder its reputation is going down the pan.
Quote:
Xpander wrote
In my own personal opinion though, I think staff at the company should be paid more and be more carefully selected and trained i.e. like BT's staff are. I think this would improve things significantly. It would provide a more professional representation of the company to its customers, and also help retain the best staff, who would be less inclined to leave to seek better employment. The result would be less problems and better customer service, which I think you would agree, forms the essence of Orange's problems.
I agree and unless Orange fork out more for training staff it will get worse much worse i'm glad i ditched Orange last year but hate seeing people being treated like fools (like i was especially when i tried to leave) and locked in these 12 months contracts with no service its disgraceful.
Anyway thanks for your response
Regards
_________________ ex Freeserve/Wanadoo/Orange Blog
With my MAC letter in hand I phoned to change to Sky only to be told due to high demand they have sold out in my area and I only have the option of £17 a month broadband!
So I have bitten the bullet and decided to pay for broadband once more - in hope of getting a better service.
Joined: 21 Apr 2006Posts: 94Location: Fallowfield, Manchester
robbo747 wrote:
Hey, just to keep everyone updated....
With my MAC letter in hand I phoned to change to Sky only to be told due to high demand they have sold out in my area and I only have the option of £17 a month broadband!
So I have bitten the bullet and decided to pay for broadband once more - in hope of getting a better service.
I have just signed up to Be
Really hoping all my worries are about to end
Note that Sky would not take on more customers than their infrastructure can support. Slightly different to some companies
With my MAC letter in hand I phoned to change to Sky only to be told due to high demand they have sold out in my area and I only have the option of £17 a month broadband!
So I have bitten the bullet and decided to pay for broadband once more - in hope of getting a better service.
I have just signed up to Be
Really hoping all my worries are about to end
Note that Sky would not take on more customers than their infrastructure can support. Slightly different to some companies
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