on 13/11/09 I was contacted by Orange Sales inviting me to convert from my existing "up to 8mb package" to new Home Select "up to 20mb" package. I was told they had tested my line and I could expect approx. 9mb download speed,
Previously my Livebox configuration page had shown the following:
Attainable download rate (kbps) :8456
Downstream Upstream
Rate (kbps) 6190 528
Between 13/11/09 and 18/11/09 I then suffered "ppp server down" problems and thus had no broadband.
After the 18/11/09 after a few days the livebox established the following constant reading:
Attainable download rate (kbps) : 9496
Downstream Upstream
Rate (kbps) 8190 829
And yes I am happy. Until, that is, I happened to notice the following readings on 3/12/09:
Attainable download rate (kbps) : 7740
Downstream Upstream
Rate (kbps) 6140 828
I contacted Orange on 9/12 and explained that my speed was now slower than before I transferred to the new "faster" package. The lady I spoke to was extremely unhelpful and insisted that Orange needed 3 readings from speedtest.net before they could do anything. Given that, in a previous 2 month saga earlier this year, I had been told by a senior manager from Orange's Escalations department that such readings were spurious and irrelevent and that the speeds shown on the Livebox configuration page were the "definitive" ones, I insisted to the lady that they log the problem straight away. This was done.
I subsequently received a text yesterday to say that "the line was fine and there were no problems". This, of course, totally ignores the situation I was actually reporting and querying.
So I tried to phone back only to recieve a constant "this is our busiest time . . . . please phone back between 12 and 4" !!!
I eventually made contact at about midday today and queried why my speed appears to have been "throttled back" only to have the lady insist she needed 3 speedtest.net readings!!! We went through the usual "has anything changed on your home setup . . . ?" . She also told me that the Livebox downstream speed will change during peak and offpeak times. If that's the case it's strange that my speed hasn't gone back up after a week? Eventually I was eventually told after 30 minutes that a further test would be done. However, I am unconvinced that my qury will be satisfactorily answered/resolved.
I wish now I hadn't allowed myself to be talked by Orange into changing my package and I am sick and tired of being given the runaround at no little expense to my phone bill!
She also told me that the Livebox downstream speed will change during peak and offpeak times.
That sounds very suspect. Your throughput might be lower during peak types but your reported "Livebox downstream speed" is the sync rate and has nothing to do with throughput. I've never heard of any ISP forcing a re-sync to a lower speed for peak times.
well sometimes mine re-syncs on a night normally after 00.00 am for some reason and after 3-4 day's of constant connection explain that 1 cause can't i with you saying i tryed to get an explanation out of Orange but fat chance at that.
I honestly think Orange don't even know how to do things to fix probems, i think they prob get some one to do it for them cause if they could do these things or even explain why on certion things then it would be done straight away
Fu*king usless they are,they even told me once to ask BT turn my gain up on my line but i am on llu so BT has nothing to do with t!!!!
Hi Nagasaki, I work for Orange and might be able to help.
Please send an email to customer.services@orange.co.uk, including your personal contact details and username from this site, and I will give you a call to discuss.
In order that your email is forwarded to me quickly, please add "Darren Orange Response" in the subject field and also in the first line of your mail.
Having received an invitation to contact them from the Orange Response Team on 14/12/09, I did so on the 15/9 and received a phone call the next evening about 6pm. Whilst not directly sorting my "problem" out the gentleman I spoke to patiently explained why I was experiencing the downstream rates I was and I thank him very much for that. This is my understanding of what he explained to me:
1) The Orange sales team quoted a personal speed of 9mb to me incorrectly. My line can only take 6mb whether I like it or not. Indeed 6mb is the speed I believed to be the maximum myself because I had gone on to the BT Broadband sites a number of times previously to establish the fastest speed my line can go to (just type your phone number in on the appropriate spot and the BT webpage checks your exchange.
2)On the new 20mb package Orange tests your line initially at 12mb speed. As the tests (over a period of time) discover that, of course, your Livebox can't receive a signal at that speed, they systamatically reduce the speed until a constant, error-free speed is obtained. This is called the Maximum Sustainable Rate. This rate is constantly monitored by something Orange calls Digital Line Management.
3) Thus, I first got a 8mb downstream rate on the Livebox but the Digital Line Management decided that there were too many errors on the line when there were a significnt number of users "internetting" and so put me down to the 6mb speed the line is truly capable of.
4) Allegedly the Digital Line Management is constantly scanning the line and communicating with the Livebox and does test to see if it can "safely" increase the linespeed. (Since being dropped back down from 8mb to 6mb about 3 weeks after taking up the 20mb package, I have observed a single change back up to 8mb which lasted all of ONE DAY!!!! But I guess it proves the point.)
5) It was confirmed by the Orange Response chap that I spoke to that it is indeed completely erroneous for Help Desk staff to insist that you provide 3 Speedtest.net readings when raising a query regarding your Livebox reported downstream rate. Such readings would always be below the Livebox reported downstream rate and would have no bearing whatsoever on the downstream speed.
There we are then. A proper understandable explanation ( I personally think it is) or total bull***t?
Whichever, it is clear to me that (1) the Help Desk staff are not competent to deal with Orange Users problems and are just there to "buy" time, and (2) the Sales pitch which confidently extols that your line has been tested and it is capable of a speed faster than a quick visit to a BT broadband site would suggest is probably erroneous at best and could even be a total falsehood at worst!
Finally, I express my appreciation to the Orange Response Team.
Joined: 13 Nov 2009Posts: 408Location: South East Essex
It makes a difference when someone explains what is happening. Personally I think you've been given a fair explanation based on my understanding of how things work.
Out of curiosity what is the downstream SNR margin and attenuation?
The BT speedtest are not really relevant for LLU products and only test what BTw can provide. I'd have thought that if BT quoted 6Mb then on LLU you'd probably get nearer 9mb.
For me BT quote 6-7Mb & on Orang e LLU I'm getting 10Mb (quoted during the sales process). It's taken a long time to get to this point as the DLM seems very slow in initially assessing the line , it took 4weeks at 1Mb before it ramped me up progressively over 5 days to 10Mb.
They systamatically reduce the speed until a constant, error-free speed is obtained. This is called the Maximum Sustainable Rate. This rate is constantly monitored by something <a href="http://www.maccodes.co.uk" target="MAC">Orange</a> calls Digital Line Management.
I really can't let these comments pass by without correction.
If you were told this and it's an accurate transcript (i.e. you have written exactly what you were told) then it's a load of boŁŁoc#s.
MAXIMUM STABLE RATE is a system used solely by BTw IPStream and is where the DSLAM at the exchange communicates with the Rate Adaptive Management Box and adjusts the Rate Adaptive Profile on the Broadband Remote Access Server. MSR is run in the first 10 days only. To my knowledge the LLU system does not use this.
DYNAMIC LINE MANAGEMENT runs continuously and analyses data from DSLAM and the Rate Adaptive Management Box and automatically makes changes to SNR if necessary. The LLU system has a similar but not the same process.
If you want an independent technical description then read here >>>
I really can't let these comments pass by without correction.
If you were told this and it's an accurate transcript (i.e. you have written exactly what you were told) then it's a load of boŁŁoc#s.
Hmmm, okay. Let's see . . . As I wrote the information above I was referring to the 150 Leaf Shorthand Notebook in which I made my contempory notes as I was actually speaking to the Orange Response person.
In response to borednow's comments I have just opened the Notebook again and relooked at the notes I made. No, I haven't typed anything wrong. I was told DLM=Digital Line Management and that MSR=Maximum Sustainable Rate. Also, there in black and white is the understanding I recorded at the time and which I itemised above.
So then, I am happy that I have provided an accurate transcript of my conversation to this forum.
Where does this leave us?
If borednow's comments are correct (I have no reason to think they aren't anymore than I had any reason to think that the information I was given by Orange Response Team wasn't) then I assume he is saying that I have been misled.
In which case if the Orange Response Team are reading this (specifically a gentleman called Rohit) then perhaps they might wish to give us their written response.
Incidentally, borednow, whilst I grant you that a two line, expletive-riddled post might be treated with some sceptism, I think you can safely assume that when a long-suffering Orange customer has been driven to recording his saga with Orange on this forum in some detail, such a record is going to be a reasonably accurate one.
Incidentally, borednow, whilst I grant you that a two line, expletive-riddled post might be treated with some sceptism, I think you can safely assume that when a long-suffering <a href="http://www.maccodes.co.uk" target="MAC">Orange</a> customer has been driven to recording his saga with <a href="http://www.maccodes.co.uk" target="MAC">Orange</a> on this forum in some detail, such a record is going to be a reasonably accurate one.
Just wanted to make absolutely certain....I've been "advised" by both Indian and UK based so-called technical people who seem to think that if they say something confidently enough and often enough then you will assume that it must be correct.
In the end, even they come to believe it themselves.
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