I have been told by tech support at least 4 or 5 times now that they are initiating a line test with BT, that I should leave my computer on with the modem connected to the master BT socket and to try not to make phone calls during a 24hour period.
I asked tech support for some evidence that a request had actually been logged; e.g. a request or incident reference number? "I'm sorry our system does not give us that information". I asked who would be able to give me that information and was told that I would have to speak to BT customer services. So, I spoke to BT and they said that no line test had been requested in the last 24 hours or even the last 24 days! They did a line test there and then and called me back to say it was all OK. BT also confirmed that they would see evidence of a test request whether it was a domestic or BT wholesale request.
So:
* When tech support request a "line test", who are they requesting it from?
* If it is not BT, why do tech support say they've requested it from BT?
* What do they actually do to "check the line"? loopback tests?
* How can I verify if anybody has actually done anything during the test period?
I get the impression that the only thing they are testing is my patience!
* When tech support request a "line test", who are they requesting it from?
It's a series of BT tests that Orange themselves run, BT don't log or keep records of them. If it's an LLU line then things are more complicated but that's off topic.
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* If it is not BT, why do tech support say they've requested it from BT?
Because it's a grey area, it's a BT test on a BT system which Orange's system communicates with.
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* What do they actually do to "check the line"? loopback tests?
I believe thats part of it but I've never gone into the details, the tests comprise of a lot of different checks. For more info if you "really" want to know....
BT Fault Diagnostics
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* How can I verify if anybody has actually done anything during the test period?
The initial tests are pretty much automated, when you call back and request the results, or get called by Orange (they do do this but it depends on the results and logs) they can advise of the status of the fault and any requests or details come back from it.
It does generate a reference number but it's pointless as the test results are linked though the system to your account anyway, plus they are generated when submitted, usually after you hang up to make sure the test goes through ok.
*Edit - the URL messed up and wouldn't let me make it a nice small clickable one.
Thanks Elhana, I've got more sense out of you within 30 mintues than I've had out of Orange telephone tech support in as many days!
I can see you know that URL off by heart I do "really" want to know what is being done to rectify my fault. In the time it is taking Orange to fix it I could have acquired the technical skills to do it myself, and at this rate I probably will!!
In my case I suspect it is an LLU issue, UK Customer service kind of confirmed that, so it is on-topic.
If there is a fault on my line, as such, then presumably BT can fix it. The "line tests" do not appear to have been conclusive, hence my doubt that anything has actually been done. I had no line fault up to the point before the 8Mb upgrade.
If there is a fault with my modem then it can be replaced. After a month of no service, this tactic is finally being attempted. Whilst there is a suspicion of a line fault I have no confidence that a new modem will work. Waiting 10 days for a new modem to ship just adds to the delay.
If there is a fault in the exchange LLU equipment then Orange should have the decency to say so and tell me what steps are being taken to rectify it, and give an estimated time to fix. The thread on http://www.orangeproblems.co.u....php?t=383 doesn't give me much confidence on that score. How can I found out if I am affected in this way?
If the tests are usually conducted immediately after the request is initiated, why do tech support telll me to wait 24 hours for an update, or, as has happened more than once, a further 24 hours?
If nothing has changed at my end since the last line test, why do we have to repeat the line test every time I phone for a progress report?
In my case I suspect it is an LLU issue, UK Customer service kind of confirmed that, so it is on-topic.
That complicates things as it doesn't go through BT wholesale at all.
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If the tests are usually conducted immediately after the request is initiated, why do tech support telll me to wait 24 hours for an update, or, as has happened more than once, a further 24 hours?
It varys, sometimes they can go through immediately sometimes they can take upto 24 hours. The only way to let you know if it's immediately is to submit it and check but if you're on the line at the time that will cause problems with the results.
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If nothing has changed at my end since the last line test, why do we have to repeat the line test every time I phone for a progress report?
Hard to answer without looking at your entry in the faults system. Could be it's returning saying there is no fault, further checks or details are requested, it's closed and a new one has to be submitted, some work has been done and they want to know if there's any changes.
If you get through again ask if there's any open faults and what the status is. They may need to look into the notes on an open fault or a closed one to see what happened.
Faults have 2 real steps, initial line test to clarify if there appears to be a fault then diagnosis/correction by the engineering team. The second part is much longer and may involve several steps or details going back and forth depending on the fault and how easy it is to find and fix.
That complicates things as it doesn't go through BT wholesale at all.
so, in that case:
* who does the line test?
* what exactly do they do?
* how can I verify that the test has been requested, acknowledged, actioned and reported on?
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Faults have 2 real steps, initial line test to clarify if there appears to be a fault then diagnosis/correction by the engineering team. The second part is much longer and may involve several steps or details going back and forth depending on the fault and how easy it is to find and fix.
As far as I can tell, step one appears to be too big to climb.....
so, in that case:
* who does the line test?
* what exactly do they do?
* how can I verify that the test has been requested, acknowledged, actioned and reported on?
Simply the tests are practically identical just run by the LLU system instead of through the BT system. Only way to verify it's being done is to ask Orange what the status is of any open faults.
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As far as I can tell, step one appears to be too big to climb.....
Actually step 1 is the easiest as long as the details are entered correctly.
The first line test I had I was actually told to call back in 2 hours. When I did, I was told my line was still with "provisioning".
Four days later, another line test. No report.
Three days later. Another line test. The next day I was told that a "problem may exist" and BT were investigating. Estimated to be complete by 5pm the following day.
Called back the following day and, surprise surprise, told I needed another line test. "Tests take 24h but call back in 2h to see if any progress." So I called back later and was told to call back in 48 hours and asked if I was "comfortable with that"? Not the adjective I had in mind.
Two days later :
TS: "You want the results of a line test"
Me: "No, I have an ADSL fault, I want a progress report"
TS: "Please hold"
Me: zzzz
TS: "I have two tools, one shows me there is a fault, the other shows problem in progress. Please hold"
Me: zzzz on hold another minute.
TS: "It is with the fault team. Call back in 48 hours. In the meantime monitor your ADSL light"
I watch the flashing green ADSL light like a hawk for 48 hours, (and throw in another 24 hours for good measure whilst I recover my vision and remembering that there is more to life than calling tech support for updates)
So, no change in ADSL light status, I call Tech Support:
TS: "You have a flashing ADSL light...."
Me: "Yes. I've had a flashing ADSL light for over two weeks, we have been through the troubleshooting steps several times, a fault has been traced on my line and engineers have allegedly been working on the problem for a week. I want to know the status of the fault and what, if any, progress has been made."
TS: "My system shows that there is a fault on the line, but that is all".
Me: "I want some evidence that that fault diagnosis is actually taking place, what the nature of the fault is, and the estimated time to fix."
TS: "I cannot tell you that sir"
Me: "In that case, I want to know who can."
TS: "Customer service should be able to tell you that"
Me: "*YOU* should be able to tell me that!"
TS: "I can only tell you what my system shows me."
Me: "OK, I inderstand. Goodbye"
TS: "Thank you for calling Orange"
So I call Customer Service and it is at this point I get the offer of a livebox to replace the USB 330. "It will be with you in ten days....."
A few days later, I wonder if the faults team have made any progress in the meantime. I call tech support:
TS: "The fault case has probably been closed." Since it was escalated to BT 11 days previously , BT confirmed a line fault. These are usually fixed within 48hours but no fix is shown on this account. TS will escalate back to BT for further line tests. "Call back in 24h for an update."
24 hours later:
TS "It has been reported to BT but, so far, no update. I suggest you call back after 48 hours"
Me: I explain that the previous BT call had been automatically closed after 48h but not shown as fixed. I do not want the fault to close by itself again without a satisfactory outcome.
TS explains that he means a further 24h, not a further 48h.
This is why I'd like to know who is actually dealing with my "line fault" if there is one. Hopefully you can understand why I am not convinced that anybody is doing anything of any lasting value.
Yeah well it can seem very hit and miss from your side of things, especially with the way some agents describe the status and what happens next.
Unfortuantly it usually makes more sense from our side when you're used to the system but lets see what I can gather from the details.
Basically the first test came back saying the changeover to LLU was still going on, so there's little point in testing at that stage, infact it prevents it with the message about provisioning.
Ok so the next initial test finds a possible fault, hard to tell what was done though. Normally I'd expect them to double check details and pass it on for further testing, however the following section suggests otherwise. Possibly the initial test was re-run and then happened to come back clear.
If it came back clear this would explain the need to resubmit a new test, maybe some of the previous details were wrong meaning the wrong details were examined for the problem.
So, new initial test, probably came back possible fault and was then passed on, 24-48 hours is common for responses from the engineering teams.
The first conversation is intriging, I'm wondering which 2 systems tech were referring to, I know one for sure, the other could be one of the more general information systems rather than something directly to do with the fault.
2nd conversation sounds mostly regular, usually the report will simply give basic info, rarely specific fault details unless it's something that directly effects you or delays the process.
In general tech are a relay between you and the system. They provide the diagnostics to aid the finding of the fault, update them of changes, let them know if a fix has corrected the problem, arrange appointments and request specifics to be done when asked. It's hard to "prove" what's being done as they just get a few system notes.
I appreciate your continued efforts, Elhana, I wish all your Orange collagues were as attentive and informative!
I'm sure it all makes sense from the Orange side of the relationship, after all, it is me who is paying for this, both financially and figuratively. I am the one who has a dial-up connection when I had contracted for broadband. I will of course seek compensation, but there is little point in starting that exercise until I can assess the inconvenience, which is already considerable. I could, and probably should take my custom elsewhere, but that would be further hardship. I have had a Freeserve/Wannadoo account for many years and changing email addresses etc now would inconvience my family and friends and various other business and social interests.
You almost make it sound as if four weeks is a perfectly reasonable period for fault diagnosis to still be inconclusive. I get no sense of urgency or automatic escalation coming from Orange. It remains left to me to continually phone for upates and press for further action.
Orange are an international telecommunications company with both telephony and internet services. Why can't Orange ring me and or email me with details of fault diagnosis and repair updates?
You almost make it sound as if four weeks is a perfectly reasonable period for fault diagnosis to still be inconclusive. I get no sense of urgency or automatic escalation coming from Orange. It remains left to me to continually phone for upates and press for further action.
It's hardly reasonable but there's little that can be done after the fact.
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Orange are an international telecommunications company with both telephony and internet services. Why can't Orange ring me and or email me with details of fault diagnosis and repair updates?
Ah they do, but it depends on the status of the fault and if they call you before you get to call them. Calling in is usually the quicker option.
I have been told by tech support at least 4 or 5 times now that they are initiating a line test with BT, that I should leave my computer on with the modem connected to the master BT socket and to try not to make phone calls during a 24hour period.
I get the impression that the only thing they are testing is my patience!
Mine too... I've supposedly been escalated to the FSD eam who are going to do this line test...
1) I haven't been asked to leave anything on - I offered to do so
2) If this whole issue (as it seems to me) to be due to LLU switching by Orange - it's NOTHING to do with BT.
3) If 2) isn't so, why are they saying they can't give me a MAC code unless new ISP supports LLU (meaning NOT BT or any notable supplier)
What if I can't have the 'puter plugged into the Master socket?
I think this fabled FSD team and line test is yet another stalling tactic so you'll wait yet another week of no service, and maybe they'll actually sort it in the interim.
Ditchin them seems the only solution sadly.
Mine too... I've supposedly been escalated to the FSD eam who are going to do this line test...
1) I haven't been asked to leave anything on - I offered to do so
2) If this whole issue (as it seems to me) to be due to LLU switching by Orange - it's NOTHING to do with BT.
3) If 2) isn't so, why are they saying they can't give me a MAC code unless new ISP supports LLU (meaning NOT BT or any notable supplier)
What if I can't have the 'puter plugged into the Master socket?
FSD don't run linetests themselves, they are usually called upon to correct problems with the fault update and reporting system so the tests can then go through correctly. They're not a stalling tactic but it often seems that way.
As FSD don't run any tests you wouldn't normally be asked to leave things on.
It's still BT's exchange and physical line so they will be called upon in some fault checks, also it's usually their engineers which visit you if required. Because of the way many agents phrase details about line checks things can becoming ambiguois (sure I've spelt that wrong) and confusing at times.
If you're on an LLU line then you'll get an LLU MAC code which only a few providers accept. There's a bunch of threads around talking about this and which providers do accept them.
This whole debacle has been going on since at least DECEMBER 2005 !!!! when the first lot of LLU's were instigated.
My woes started in FEB 2006 when my exchange was LLUed. Till then 8 years with Freeserve/Wanadoo no problems!
As these posts, and on other forums, show they are still, to date, unbundling exchanges, BLATANTLY AND KNOWINGLY producing the same faults and problems for thousands of customers who had previously (to the LLU) a stable service.
I could understand problems with the initial LLU's, new systems, new processes etc and if Orange/Wanadoo were a company new to this technology BUT THEY ARE A MULTINATIONAL TELLECOMS INDUSTRY !!!!!
It is now at least 9 MONTHS since the faults were known and they are still reading from the same (nonsensical) scripts !! and continuing with the flawed LLU Why ?
I'm sorry Elhana but lies and contradictions are told time and again, you only have to read the answers given to the customers, the customers don't make the replies up! one hand does not know what the other is doing, there is no joined up fault/tech/cs system.
With todays technology there is no excuse for a customer having to phone multiple departments, running around in circles and in the end getting no where. One call should be able access all required departments.
How do most of these posts start? I WAS OK TILL I WAS UPGRADED
What does this tell you? THE PROBLEM IS CAUSED BY THE UPGRADE. Its not rocket science is it ?
Orange try to blame BT yet the problem is a known incompatibility with Oranges (Alcatell) equipment.
Orange say that BT's line won't support the speed! THEN WHY FOR ***** SAKE DO Orange PUT THE SERVICE ON A LINE THAT WON'T SUPPORT IT ? Oranges fault not BT!
Re the above paragraph when some one moves to another ISP they get the higher speeds ON THE SAME BT LINE !!!
THERE IS NO EXCUSE WHATEVER FOR THE LENGTH OF TIME ( WEEKS AND IN SOME CASES MONTHS ) TAKEN TO RESOLVE FAULTS!
IS THERE ANYTHING ANY OF YOU USE ON A DAILY BASIS, WASHING MACHINE, CAR, TV, COMPUTER ETC THAT YOU WOULD ACCEPT A SIMILAR PROBLEM WITH FOR SO LONG ?
If only Orange and all levels of employees from top to bottom could be honest, admit the fault is Oranges, not BT's, not the modem, not the software, not your computer, not you, not the weather, not because it's dark, not because it's raining, not because it's weekend, not because people are checking world cup scores, and the hundreds of other crass excuses we are subject to!
1 Step
P.s. how about a list of all the lame excuses given for faults or broken promises?
I could understand problems with the initial LLU's, new systems, new processes etc and if Orange/Wanadoo were a company new to this technology BUT THEY ARE A MULTINATIONAL TELLECOMS INDUSTRY !!!!!
Oh so what other countries have Orange deployed rate adaptive ADSL technology over phone lines they have limited control over which use the same system as BT?
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It is now at least 9 MONTHS since the faults were known and they are still reading from the same (nonsensical) scripts !! and continuing with the flawed LLU Why ?
Ok let me turn that around slightly, why do BT continue with ADSL Max when they know only a little under 1/3 of people will have no problems? (ADSLguide.org survey)
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I'm sorry Elhana but lies and contradictions are told time and again, you only have to read the answers given to the customers, the customers don't make the replies up! one hand does not know what the other is doing, there is no joined up fault/tech/cs system.
I'll agree with that somewhat, though a lot of the comments are taken slightly out of context or simply mis-construed (Thats gotta be spelt wrong I'm sure) by both customers and agents. I know I've done it previously where you explain one thing only later to find the system meant something else entirely.
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With todays technology there is no excuse for a customer having to phone multiple departments, running around in circles and in the end getting no where. One call should be able access all required departments.
And that causes problems if there happens to be call queues, it ties up the agent so queues in the first department get longer, or if you're trasnferred over into the queue it means you have to go through explaining things again.
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How do most of these posts start? I WAS OK TILL I WAS UPGRADED
What does this tell you? THE PROBLEM IS CAUSED BY THE UPGRADE. Its not rocket science is it ?
Then why have I and many agents been able to fix LLU problems without running line tests or having engineers look at it? Sure many will be caused by faults but equally many are just minor problems that an upgrade to a different usually faster speed simply excentuates. If it's a simple cause and we just ignore all that and run line tests, have engineers check the exchange and eventualy visit thats a whole lot of time it could be working from fixing that simple problem.
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Orange say that BT's line won't support the speed! THEN WHY FOR ***** SAKE DO Orange PUT THE SERVICE ON A LINE THAT WON'T SUPPORT IT ? Oranges fault not BT!
The initial test indicates what speed the line should support but without trying to run that signal down the line for real there's no way to be sure of the result. Anyway it's rate adaptive, it should syncronise at a lower speed if it can't connect at all on a higher one.
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THERE IS NO EXCUSE WHATEVER FOR THE LENGTH OF TIME ( WEEKS AND IN SOME CASES MONTHS ) TAKEN TO RESOLVE FAULTS!
No, I agree but it is being improved.
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If only Orange and all levels of employees from top to bottom could be honest, admit the fault is Oranges, not BT's, not the modem, not the software, not your computer, not you, not the weather, not because it's dark, not because it's raining, not because it's weekend, not because people are checking world cup scores, and the hundreds of other crass excuses we are subject to!
Even if they did admit it would that speed things up? Mostly all it would do is have more customers blame Orange for their problems even when it's nothing to do with them, they'd become a scapegoat in many cases.
Oh so what other countries have Orange deployed rate adaptive ADSL technology over phone lines they have limited control over which use the same system as BT?
LLU up to now is not rate adaptive! if and when Orange go over to ADSL max ( or similar ) things may get better.
[/quote]Ok let me turn that around slightly, why do BT continue with ADSL Max when they know only a little under 1/3 of people will have no problems? (ADSLguide.org survey)
Possibly because it is more stable, is rate adaptive, and resolving customers problems with there system does not take months.
[/quote]I'll agree with that somewhat, though a lot of the comments are taken slightly out of context or simply mis-construed (Thats gotta be spelt wrong I'm sure) by both customers and agents. I know I've done it previously where you explain one thing only later to find the system meant something else entirely.
Listening and explaining in a consistent way should resolve this, problem is that for the same problem you can get 3 different stories from 3 different CSA's ( not including you Elahana )
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And that causes problems if there happens to be call queues, it ties up the agent so queues in the first department get longer,
Call transfer seems to work OK for other industries!
or if you're trasnferred over into the queue it means you have to go through explaining things again.
You still have to explain all again when you phone another dept. At least with a call transfer time is saved by (a) not having to do security checks again and (b) cust. details will be active including the steps already taken from the previous CSA.
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Then why have I and many agents been able to fix LLU problems without running line tests or having engineers look at it? Sure many will be caused by faults but equally many are just minor problems that an upgrade to a different usually faster speed simply excentuates. If it's a simple cause and we just ignore all that and run line tests, have engineers check the exchange and eventualy visit thats a whole lot of time it could be working from fixing that simple problem.
Yup I agree with that Elhana
The initial test indicates what speed the line should support but without trying to run that signal down the line for real there's no way to be sure of the result. Anyway it's rate adaptive, it should syncronise at a lower speed if it can't connect at all on a higher one.
Orange do not test all the customers lines! too costly. They only test small random selection. If they tested all lines there would be far fewer problems. As above LLU is not rate adaptive at the moment.
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Even if they did admit it would that speed things up? Mostly all it would do is have more customers blame Orange for their problems even when it's nothing to do with them, they'd become a scapegoat in many cases.
You would be surprised at the increase in customer satisfaction, and more importantly customer retention, when a company admits to their shortcomings. Customers are not stupid and accept that errors/problems do occur, it's part of life. What they don't stand is companies denying that the fault is theirs only to be found out.
Saying " we're sorry we have a fault/problem we are doing our best to resolve it and WE will keep YOU informed of progress " and doing what you say reaps rewards.
As mentioned before my posts are aimed at Orange as a company and not at Elhana who in my opinion does a great job. I and many others have a lot to thank her for in enabling us to solve some problems with her info, and giving us an insight it to what is actually happening inside.
If Oranges upper/middle management were as conciencious in there job as Elhana is in hers I don't think we would have as many problems.
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I do "really" want to know what is being done to rectify my fault. In the time it is taking 
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