Pre LLU I was synching at 4000 kpbs and getting speedtests close to that most the time. When I got the dreaded "speed upgrade" (aka LLU) email I was initially synching at 6000 kpbs, but this just wasn't working, so I was bumped down to 2000 kbps (still LLU) and am getting speeds close to that.
Is this classed as breach of contract, or is it classed as still "up to 8MB" so OK?
Joined: 17 Oct 2006Posts: 61Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire
nhyder wrote:
In legal contract terms it is within the conditions.
Orange, probably along with most other ISPs, obviously had their legal dept. devise a service description before selling it.
Or another explanation, if you study the history, you might find one ISP began selling "up to 8meg" and the others quickly caught on.
"Up to 8meg" is exactly what it says....it could be 0.5meg but also it could be 7.5meg = customer with no legs to stand on.
i think it's an absolute 100% breach of contract considering the fact that people PRIOR to being LLU'd (the mystical UPgrade process) were getting far closer to 8mbps - now they have been LLU'd they are getting far closer to Dial up speeds.
If an upgrade fails to, well, Upgrade then it's not an upgrade and it's false advertising....
if you bought a brand new car and had it a week and the garage called up and said. "we're gonna upgrade your car free of charge" you'd be like YEAH Cool do it!...................then when you get the car back it's only got 3 wheels.....Ok it still starts and does what a car should, except it's only got 3 wheels....you wouldnt be very happy would you?
well thats what Orange have done, they're claiming to have a 4 wheel service but only providing 3.....though in some case it seems the steering wheel has also been taken.
_________________ I am me, you are you, we are us, so who are they?
Sweeperdog had the option of saying no to LLU and moving ISP. With hindsight that's what I'm sure he/she wishes he/she had done !!
On the other hand, Rudders had no option because, I believe, he/she requested the "BB max 8meg" service, was capable of receiving it but Orange failed to ensure he/she was getting even though he/she told them what was causing the problem. This could be a breach of contract.
_________________ An ex-Orange guinea pig
"The first third of our lives is ruined by our parents, the second third by 0range then along comes 02 and you die happy."
Well what happened to me was prior to that I was on 1MB speed (only when 2MB was available). I requested my MAC early May, and was offered up to 8MB on the retention package. I was then ADSLMax'ed within about 5 days, then LLU'd in July
For £9.99 I am happy with the service, but thanks for the replies
Apologies....I took it that you were unsatisfied with only 2mb service when you were paying for up to 8 mb.....you didn't mention about only paying £9.99 !!!!!!
But as for the contract, nowhere, to my knowledge, does it say they will supply a service on "LLU" or "ADSLMax" or "IPstream" so whatever the service I reckon they've got us by the S&Cs because "up to 8mb" is a cover all statement.
I've long thought that Orange (and a number of other ISPs on LLU) only have one service to offer and that's up to 8mb, they then manipulate it as they please.
_________________ An ex-Orange guinea pig
"The first third of our lives is ruined by our parents, the second third by 0range then along comes 02 and you die happy."
Joined: 03 Aug 2007Posts: 9Location: North London, Essex
sweeperdog wrote:
Pre LLU I was synching at 4000 kpbs and getting speedtests close to that most the time. When I got the dreaded "speed upgrade" (aka LLU) email I was initially synching at 6000 kpbs, but this just wasn't working, so I was bumped down to 2000 kbps (still LLU) and am getting speeds close to that.
Is this classed as breach of contract, or is it classed as still "up to 8MB" so OK?
Cheers
This is a point I've been pondering for a few weeks...
If you enter into a contract with a minimum period attached to it, for an "up to" 8Mb service, then (as has been said before), the "up to" can mean virtually anything.
But... if you end up with a service where you are "bumped down" (does that mean capped?) to 2000kpbs, then according to my slightly obscure logic, it cannot be "up to 8Mb" any longer - merely "up to 2Mb".
This, I feel, simply must be a breach of contract. But... (Orange are good at giving me cause to "But..."!!) if they then advise you that they've done that (usually by thanking you for requesting the change that you actually didn't request), then you are on a new contract.
So no - it isn't a breach of contract. Orange have simply thrown away the contract that they could not fulfill, and put you on a different one. Clever eh? I wish I could walk away from a contract that easily!!!
This is precisely why it needs somebody brave enough and rich enough to take this to Court.......unfortunately many of us have the first quality but few have the second.
_________________ An ex-Orange guinea pig
"The first third of our lives is ruined by our parents, the second third by 0range then along comes 02 and you die happy."
I told them this and they had no idea how to reply.
if I sync at 8128 I am getting up to 8 meg
if I sync at 2272 I am getting up to 2meg
if I sync at 608 I am getting up to half a meg.
I asked them seeing as I had gone from 2 to a very unstable 8 back to 2 then onto the dreaded 608 how much a half meg service was they said they did not provide that only up to 8 meg,so I said but I am capped at 608 there is no way I can ever get up to 8mb,so how can I be on up to 8mb there was no answer to that.just said I was on an up to 8mb connection .Work that one out lol.
Apologies....I took it that you were unsatisfied with only 2mb service when you were paying for up to 8 mb.....you didn't mention about only paying £9.99 !!!!!!
Ideally I would like out - it was great when it was 4000 non LLU, but now it's 2000 LLU with failing DNS servers I am not so happy
I will probably end mid contract sometime after my break even period. Though we recently signed up to napster, so maybe downloading loads of songs will put me over the limit
Joined: 03 Aug 2007Posts: 9Location: North London, Essex
Ciderfex wrote:
I told them this and they had no idea how to reply.
if I sync at 8128 I am getting up to 8 meg
if I sync at 2272 I am getting up to 2meg
if I sync at 608 I am getting up to half a meg.
I asked them seeing as I had gone from 2 to a very unstable 8 back to 2 then onto the dreaded 608 how much a half meg service was they said they did not provide that only up to 8 meg,so I said but I am capped at 608 there is no way I can ever get up to 8mb,so how can I be on up to 8mb there was no answer to that.just said I was on an up to 8mb connection .Work that one out lol.
Work that one out??? C'mon - Orange have no idea what they are talking about most of the time. So if THEY don't know, how the hell d'ya expect me to?
The situation I'm in is something like yours - although I've got quite a few other gripes with them, and I've been arguing the toss with them for the past four months. To start with, I became very angry with every new twist and turn... but now I just smile, or giggle, or laugh hysterically and uncontrollably for a while, before I return to the task of screwing them down, slowly but surely, point by point, until they've nowhere to turn.
Orange might be big, and Orange might think they are clever - but in the end, they will lose! When they started giving me grief, they picked on the wrong guy!
Frankly_me, I looked at your original post "What exactly is a contract" :
"My last "upgrade request", according to Escalations in Middlesbrough, happened in response to a telephone call I apparently made to them (they even gave me the date and remarkably specific time of this telephone call), even though I can prove that no such call ever took place.
I did write to Orange about this (and my other issues with them), but of course, apart from saying that they'd dealt comprehensively with the issues in previous letters, they completely ignored my queries as usual."
Why not ask for a transcripted copy of the phone call citing the Data Protection Act ?
If they won't put it in writing, chances are it doesn't exist.
_________________ An ex-Orange guinea pig
"The first third of our lives is ruined by our parents, the second third by 0range then along comes 02 and you die happy."
Joined: 03 Aug 2007Posts: 9Location: North London, Essex
nhyder, you ask a good question!
The answer is, regarding that particular point - I am currently engaged in some correspondence with Customer Services, and slowly but surely grinding them down. But I've decided to proceed using (and quoting to them) their own Code of Practise route, which (from the tone of the replies I've received thus far) is really annoying them.
I feel that by doing it this way, I'm managing to collect more and more written evidence from them of their lies, obfuscation (great word!), and total incompetence. Call me odd, but I derive great pleasure from clinically dissecting their replies, and asking them to explain themselves.
What can they do? Disconnect my service? Not without a very, very good reason - and I won't give them the pleasure.
This "upgrade request" issue, in terms of my arguments with Orange, is really a minor side issue. But it does touch on the very dodgy subject of Contracts, and what Orange seem to think they can do with them, ie tear 'em up and walk away, with impunity.
They can't - and I intend to ensure that they don't!
dunno if its been stated as i didnt read everyones replies, but if you ring them up "upto 8mb" is between 2mb + 8mb, according to them, thats how they get out of it anyway... i had a similar problem...
Joined: 03 Aug 2007Posts: 9Location: North London, Essex
kmensforth wrote:
dunno if its been stated as i didnt read everyones replies, but if you ring them up "upto 8mb" is between 2mb + 8mb, according to them, thats how they get out of it anyway... i had a similar problem...
thats how i got out of it ^^ let me know if it helps you or not..
thanks
Hi Karl,
I've just read your post of August 23, and found it fascinating. It looks very much like you've had many of the exact same experiences I've had, and which I'm arguing with Orange about. The trouble is, because Orange avoid putting quite a lot of what they say in writing, it's very difficult to prove anything.
But... you refer to an email you received FROM Orange, offering 8Mb Broadband. So - first question: Was it for Broadband Unlimited, and do you recall whether the email referred to a "Complete Broadband Experience", offer ending 30th June 2007, with an 08000 number to call?
Also, when (if) you called that number, can you remember whether they "tested your line", at the point when (according to your recollection) they told you that you could/would receive a speed of 5Mb when you changed package?
Assuming you could answer "yes" to the questions I've asked, you might be interested in the following: 1. You would have spoken to an agency, specifically hired by Orange to sell the package. 2. They did not perform any "line test", as we would understand the term. They merely checked the facilities available at your exchange, from data supplied by BT. Data which Orange freely admit is wildly innaccurate. 3. They almost certainly DID tell you what speed you would get, and (certainly in my case, because I rang quite a few times, and persisted with them explaining what they were saying), quite possibly suggested that the speed they quoted was "guaranteed".
Of course, in your case this is all academic, as you've now moved to BT. But I believe there must be hundreds, if not thousands, of people who got caught by this grubby exercise. Orange say that, because it was an agency (a third party), they are not responsible, and they also say that no guarantees about speed would have been given.
Firstly, I believe that Orange most certainly ARE responsible for the actions of any third party that they engaged to act for them; and secondly, that particular sales exercise went on for Three months, and although I regularly requested that Orange checked into what was actually being said, they either did not do so, or failed to act on it.
None of the above can be proved of course - but it seems to me that there must be a hell of a lot of people who had much the same experience. Did Orange push the legal boundaries to the very edge? Or did they go too far?
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