Here is a comparison between Orange's LLU and the Tiscali LLU service. It's mainly just my comments on how similar/different things are comparing PlusNet's LLU FAQ, also note their FAQ is from 28/07/2006 so some things may be out of date or different. I'll highlight anything of interest in the text as red.
Can I check if my exchange is being used by PlusNet for LLU? Is there a list of exchanges which are enabled or going to be enabled? LLU suppliers are a competitive bunch, and they don't publish a list of planned exchanges publicly. We have and will again email all customers on an exchange that is planned to be activated to inform them of the possibility for an LLU transfer. This will ensure customers have access to relevant details about the LLU transfer process. When we become aware of new exchanges on the potential supply list, we will email all customers on that exchange with the same information.
As per the highlight, orange don't publish LLU availablitiy also as many people have shown an email is sent with details of when the transfer is supposed to be.
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Which of your customers are you transferring to LLU?
We have started by transferring customers from PlusNet , Force9 and Free-Online. At the moment we do not have any plans to transfer Business customers or users of the Metronet service to LLU. Additionally, no PAYG customers are currently being transferred to LLU.
Please bear in mind that you are only able to do this prior to an order being placed on your line to transfer your service to LLU. As the order process takes around a month from being placed, if you wish to opt-out you should do it immediately. This opt-out scheme was introduced because of difficulties with migrating away from an LLU service when our first customers were transferred. A Migration trial is now in place which can be used by our customers, however as this is only a trial, the option to opt-out will be continued until there is a business as usual process for switching between LLU and IPStream. More details about migrations are included later in this FAQ.
Can I opt-in to being moved to LLU?
Not currently. However if you have opted-out we may offer you the option to change your mind in the future, especially if there is significant demand for this. There may be a charge to move to LLU at a later date, although this is as yet undecided.
With Orange there is no opt-in / opt-out or shaking it all about!
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Who are you using for LLU provision? Tiscali are the only supplier we are currently using. At this stage while we are still talking to a number of other suppliers (All of the providers who could offer a suitable wholesale product have been approached by us) as per our stated aim to provide service through multiple wholesale providers. However at the moment only Tiscali are offering a product we feel is of an acceptable quality for our customers.
We provision customers against a business grade product when they are moved to Tiscali. This is not the same service as Tiscali provide to their residential customers.
Why do you refer to an Alternative Network Supplier instead of just saying Tiscali?
Our original plan was to utilise multiple network suppliers and we didn't want to confuse customers by doing this. As it happens the lack of further LLU suppliers who have been able to meet our criteria for supply means at this stage we have no plans to engage another LLU supplier. As such, we will from here on in refer to Tiscali LLU directly, rather than using terms like "Alternative Network Suppliers".
Where a fault or similar is apparent across both BT and Tiscali, we will speak about our Wholesale Broadband Supplier.
Not relevant as Orange do their own LLU and don't go through a wholesale provider.
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What is the process for migrating people to Tiscali LLU?
We've explained that it can take a month to migrate people to LLU, and that once the process has started it is too late to opt-out. People have asked us why; below is a detailed breakdown of the process we have to follow for each LLU migration.
Each week Tiscali provide us with an Exchange Activation List (EAL) that lists enabled exchanges, migration dates and the number of customers we can migrate onto on exchange on each of these dates.
A script is run to generate a File containing a list of candidate telephone numbers that is sent to Tiscali.
At this point we also send a Letter Of Authority or LOA to BT giving them permission for the circuits to be migrated by Tiscali.
Tiscali look to place the orders with BT using a system called Line Share Automation or LISA.
Assuming they accept the order BT provide Tiscali with a migration date.
Tiscali email us a Migration Date Confirmation List (MDCL) each week containing the activation details that have been given to them by BT.
A script runs that places an internal note against customer's accounts and emails them advising that they are in the process of being migrated to Tiscali. (This script has been problematic, as the MDCL list has failed to be parsed correctly at times)
At this time a cease request is placed against the original IPStream Service. This should not complete until after the migration has been completed and confirmed.
Tiscali plan for the move and configure the relevant DSLAM port remotely.
Tiscali configure all PlusNet circuits with an 8Mbps Downstream Rate Adaptive Service (800kbps up), default target SNR of 12db and 8ms Interleaving. This may change moving forwards, based on the feedback we give them and we have some scope to change these settings for individual customers. This profile however is proven to be the most stable overall. More technical details are covered regarding this later in the FAQ.
Each day our Broadband Operations Team receive Migration Confirmation Lists from Tiscali on a daily basis containing a list of accounts that have been successfully migrated.
A script is run that triggers the required profile and account changes at this side
A confirmation email should then be sent to the customer.
If the migration order is unsuccessful the customer stays on IPStream.
Probably a similar process, I know much of the steps are the same but directly between BT and Orange. A few people have posted checks where it shows their line being ceased, thats just the IPStream connection being ceased as it's migrating to LLU.
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I've heard of problems occurring during the LLU transfer, how many faults have you had?
In total we have raised about 1000 faults to Tiscali, having moved about 12,000 customers to the service to date. Excluding a number of early issues on exchanges when they were first activated, fault rates have been similar to the levels we see on a BT IPStream Max service and we believe with planned improvements at our side and by Tiscali the fault rate will improve in the coming weeks.
To break this down more, in the last 7 days, we resolved 117 faults with Tiscali. 7 of these were caused by 'third party' (Tiscali Supplier) hardware, 35 were Tiscali issues (DSLAM configuration or VLAN issues) and 75 were marked as other reasons (Either incorrect settings on customer's equipment, a problem at our side, or no fault was found). The most common cause of problems is where customers are not using the correct encapsulation setting in their router (This should be set to VCMux, Not LLC based). The issue of incorrect settings has been compounded in instances where customers have not received the notification email from PlusNet.
No details of this from Orange although it's recognised accross the industry that LLU migrations are in general more fault prone than IPStream.
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What experience do you think most customers get?
We recently ran an on-line survey asking randomly selected Tiscali transferred customers this question. Where LLU works (In over 90% of cases), it seems to work very well indeed and customers either noticed no difference or said they were more than satisfied. Where customers experienced problems however it is clear that they have been severely impacted and we recognise the urgent need to ensure the causes of these issues get resolved.
The average per customer usage does increase when people are moved to LLU, and this suggests a better throughput than the equivalent BT service.
Yes, yes the Orange LLU speed issues! There are a lot of people who really don't notice any real change when they are migrated to LLU.
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What are the details of the problems you have seen, and what are you doing about them specifically?
Although each of these problems on its own has a solution, the elements combined have caused serious inconvenience for impacted customers. The major issues we are aware of and the action we are taking are documented below:
- Issues with the LLU migration process, whereby users have not been properly transferred and a number days after the transfer, a customer has had a Broadband cease from BT meaning the line is down for up to 10 days.
We have raised this with Tiscali, and have requested specific improvements to status monitoring throughout the migration process so that we can understand and address any potential issues like this before they occur. We have also asked Tiscali to raise this with BT Openreach and will maintain pressure to improve the transfer process through this path.
- At some newly enabled exchanges the DSLAM had not been correctly configured by Tiscali to route traffic to our network before customers were first activated.
Tiscali have provided us with an assurance that they have identified the cause of this and will stop it from happening again. We are now specifically monitoring for this issue during every migration slot, and the last time it happened they had resolved the problem in less than 2 hours.
- An ongoing bug with our Juniper ERX's (L2tp Network Server) is causing random disconnections for some Tiscali LLU provisioned customers
A case is open with Juniper and we plan to perform upgrades shortly to resolve this issue.
- Slow Connection speeds and cases where connection speeds seem to be restricted.
In most cases, the information we have had back from Tiscali has diagnosed these errors as being due to customer wiring and filter setup, or the quality of the phone line itself. In a couple of cases this has been caused by incorrect user profile configurations within our systems. These issues have normally been easy to solve.
Some customers are also reporting lower speeds compared to the Max products they were previously on. This is due to interleaving and a higher signal to noise ratio, which is designed to make the connection more stable. We will have advanced internal tools available to change this profile for customers who report a problem in the near future.
- Customers unable to Synch for long periods of time.
Some no sync problems have been caused by incorrect jumpering in the exchange. This is a BT openreach task during the LLU transfer process. This has been escalated by Tiscali and we are also using other avenues to keep focus on this problem.
In the case of intermittent synch, where it takes a long time for the modem to train and gain synch, this seems to be due to the way in which the LLU network chooses the correct connection speed by decreasing the line rate gradually until a connection is achieved. This is an item we are monitoring the faults on closely in case there turns out to be another cause.
- Flapping Synch - Unable to hold a solid connection for any length of time.
There are times where the connection profile is set too high, resulting in an unreliable connection. We can change the speed profile using automated tools provided by Tiscali. We can also increase (but not reduce currently) the interleaving setting and the target signal to noise ratio for a customer by using this tool.
- Emails not sent informing customers of an impending migration to the LLU platform, and for the same reason, support initially being unable to see that a customer was moved to Tiscali LLU.
This problem occurred when the spreadsheets with updates from Tiscali were not being parsed correctly by our scripts. We have implemented multiple fixes to this and believe the bugs which were causing this are now resolved and customers are getting the expected emails. We would like to apologise to customers for any confusion caused when these emails weren't received in a timely fashion.
- Slow response times (2 - 3 days) when we raise faults with Tiscali.
Tiscali have identified the need to train more staff to deal with our LLU implementation, and are currently 10 days into a 30 day training schedule. This should reduce response times greatly. With that said, our faults staff report that they find [l=http://s2d6.com/x/?x=c&z=s&v=690054]Tiscali[/url] generally more responsive than BT. In over 96% of cases both Tiscali and BT met the SLA they provide to ISPs (48 working hours for BT, 50 working hours for Tiscali).
- Confusion over the status of the opt-out and in some cases a migration occurring even though an opt-out request was made.
The problem here was the sheer complexity of the opt-out process combined with the long order lead time of LLU. We have done our best to make this process as robust as possible, and it is very unlikely that someone who has opted out of LLU would be migrated now. If that does happen we will provide a free of charge transfer back to IPStream as soon as possible (it's worth noting that have been at least Three customers who opted out and have chosen to stay on Tiscali LLU because the experience was better than they expected).
We initially planned to remove the opt-out when a suitable MAC Migration process was available. Although there is a trial, we have decided to continue offering an opt-out until the migration process from LLU until at least the time when the Migration trial finishes and this becomes a business as usual system.
Of course there are speed issues at the moment but the part about internal wiring, setup, filters and the line is important for any high speed service be it ADSL Max or any of the
2+ services. As for the other specific LLU problems I don't know anything specific.
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What else are you doing to improve things for those with problems?
We have been, and are continuing to hold talks with Tiscali.
An improved escalation process is now in operation, providing us with key technical and customer service contacts within Tiscali. Our support team and developers are building direct relationships with these people.
A weekly problem review with Tiscali is taking all of the items on our action list and ensuring there is action we are all happy with.
We identified 10 customers from the PUG forum for in depth monitoring and analysis of the problems they were reporting. This is ongoing.
We have analysed where and why BT suffer errors with the migration process and have been holding them accountable for this via the mechanisms we have.
We are training more of our analysts to deal with the Tiscali fault and administration systems.
We have created a 'virtual team' from various departments to focus on the Tiscali LLU transfer process and ensure people from all areas of the business are working closely together to intelligently analyse and address the problem reports we are seeing.
We are working on various smart reports which will show us if a customer's migration has been successful. This is harder to check for than might be imagined, because many customers use USB modems and don't have these connected at the time when the physical migration is done. Our aim is to be much more proactive about addressing such problems. That means less inconvenienced customers who need to contact us directly to log a fault.
Orange is being looked at but I don't know any specifics. The smart reporting could be done with Orange in an more indepth way due to how the livebox's like to "phone home" when connected.
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Why don't you suspend your LLU transfer program like you did when Max caused issues?
It is our belief that suspension of the upgrade programme isn't the most appropriate way for us to manage the problems we have experienced with Tiscali LLU migrations. The reasons for this are listed below:
With Max, there was a specific problem which we hold the supplier (BT in this case) accountable for and we could test as to whether there was a resolution to the identified problem easily before we resumed the Max Upgrades.
The LLU issues we have experienced have been during the initial period following a customers transfer to LLU. With Max, there was in-life and ongoing problems for upgraded customers. Tiscali LLU, once working as expected after the transfer, is proving very reliable.
Orders are in process for a month, so a suspension now would take a month to have effect. Within that time it is imperative that we resolve the remaining issues, and we are confident that this will be the case.
As there have been many different issues, some of which caused by us, a suspension wouldn't allow us to test we had resolved them and as such wouldn't achieve a useful result These problems are nothing like on the scale of Max issues (Although these were often lower impact for customers) which swamped our CSC.
MAC codes/migrations
Again the speed issues but they probably believe they can have it fixed within a month hence no suspensions and delaying ones either in progress or that had just been ordered would probably mean a lot of manual system editing to prevent problems.
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Are MAC (Migration) codes available for LLU connections so customers can migrate to another ISP? Yes, however there are some important caveats:
This is a trial process, and the number of MAC keys could potentially be limited. At the moment there is no problem in issuing MAC codes to any customer on LLU if requested but because this is a trial things can change.
These MACs can only be used with ISPs that accept LLU MAC Codes - ie: they are also participating in the trial and are configured to accept them. The gaining ISP will be charged by BT for using the MAC Key.
If a customer wishes to transfer from Tiscali LLU to our IPStream service rather than receive a MAC key to migrate away we will only transfer them back under certain circumstances:
If an opt-out was received before the migration request was made via http://trials.plus.net
In the event of a long standing fault as a result of the migration (Long standing is judged on a case by case basis depending on the type of fault).
This policy is because in order to perform the transfer back to IPStream we have to perform a significant amount of manual work and there is a cost to us of £47(this is a new ipstream connection charge).
Are these MAC codes widely accepted by other ISP's?
Yes, although it will be up to the ISP in question as to whether or not they will accept the code as they take a different format to those generated on an IPStream service. The gaining ISP will have to pay a charge for a new connection to BT Openreach/Wholesale in order to use the MAC, which means some ISPs may refuse to operate this process.
So those are the main reasons ISP's either don't accept them or sometimes charge if you do use them.
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Do LLU MACs allow migration to other LLU providers?
Yes, they allow a transfer to any ISP that accepts LLU MAC Codes. The gaining provider may charge for this service.
Can you migrate in a new customer from another LLU service?
Yes, this is possible (Depending on the other ISP issuing LLU MAC codes), but during the trial of these MAC codes we cannot process them through our normal systems. Customers will need to pay a activation cost, but this can be deferred as per our normal activation offers. Customers should sign-up for a free account via the portal and then request the upgrade via the portal Help Assistant if they wish to have a connection migrated in from another LLU provider.
Again there could be activation costs by migrating using an LLU MAC.
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Technical
Do I need to change any settings on my router/modem when I am transferred to LLU?
You should check to ensure that your settings are as described in this link:
http://www.plus.net/support/br...ings.shtml
What are the router settings I need to have?
Most problems which occur following the LLU transfer are caused because customers were using settings that BT had allowed to work on their network, but which are not standard and have never been recommended for use. These settings do not work on the Tiscali LLU network.
The router settings should be as follows;
VPI: 0 VCI 38
Encapsulation Mode: PPPoA / VCMUX only.
The MTU settings should be set at 1458 unless you are running IPSec for a secure connection, in which case it should be 1442.
I'm not certain of the MTU settings but those are the same for Orange's. There should be no need to do anything with a livebox as they are set to the standard settings required.
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What are the downstream speeds available on LLU products?
Upto 8000kbps.
What are the upstream speeds available on LLU products?
Upto 800kbps.
Orange only do 288kbps upstream on LLU. This probably harks back to pre-Max days as upstream then was 288 only so they did the same on LLU. Since then Max has been introduced which does 448kbps as standard.
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How is it decided what speed a line is capable of and what bandwidth profiles are used (within PlusNet's and the LLU providers network)? Tiscali assign a default DSLAM profile of a rate adaptive 8000kbps service. At our end, a script is run every day to pick up any newly migrated platform, and the restrictions at our end are duly lifted to 8000kbps.
Is interleaving on or off by default? Can I request that this setting is changed, if so how?
By default, 8ms interleaving is applied. This means that the standard ping response times will be 8ms slower, which is not generally noticeable. We are currently unable to remove interleaving on a line, but we are able to increase it to 16ms. We are currently in communication with Tiscali at a high level to discuss our options in terms of removing interleaving completely.
We are hoping to publish some further information and explanation about interleaving shortly.
AFAIK interleaving is off by default when connected to Orange LLU.
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What is the default target noise margin? Can I request this setting is changed, if so how?
By default, the stable noise margin on a line is 12dB. We are able to request that Tiscali drop this to 6dB or 9dB (6dB is unadvisable). You can request this by sending us a Question via the help assistant on our portal. However, this does enerally take 5-7 days to action and we are reluctant to carry out changes unless we feel they are essential, due to the entirely manual process currently involved. We expect to have tools available shortly which will simplify this and mean we are prepared to make these changes more readily.
How is the target noise margin for a line decided?
A 12dB profile is automatically assigned against a line.
What is the full range of available target noise margins?
There is no set range for a target noise margin, and it can set anywhere between 0 and 32dB depending on the quality of the line and the amount of noise. We can't currently request directly that Tiscali reduce this to below 12dB, but this will be pssible in the near future. As with BT, these values are incremented in steps of 3dB. We will provide more general information about how this works on our website soon.
Default noise margin is 6db, same as Max. I believe it can be increased but it's not something that can be requested.
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Is there an initial training period or equivalent such as that seen with BT's DSL Max? If so how does it work? No. The 8000kbps rate adaptive profile is assigned by Tiscali as default. This means that at every Synch event the line will adopt the highest profile available based on the quality of the line.
Are there equivalents of BRAS profiles/Data Rates with LLU? If so how are they determined?
No.
This I believe to be exactly how Orange's LLU system works with no profile system, it works purely off the sync speed.
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Are there equivalents of MSR/FTR with LLU? If so, how are they determined? No. As previously discussed, a default 8000kbps profile is assigned.
Again seems the same as there is no MSR/FTR details provided by the systems.
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Are there discrete levels for bandwidth limits like there are with BT's systems?
We have a high capacity link from Tiscali, and there is generally more capacity across their network. We don't have to buy centrals like we do with BT. There is of course still exchange contention but generally Tiscali have built out more bandwidth to exchanges than BT.
Bandwidth details of the LLU network are of course unknown.
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What does the 'stable rate' figure on the portal mean with respect to an LLU line?
The stable rate figure refers to the maximum speed allowed at our end. For all customers on the Tiscali platform, this should be 8000kbps.
Similar, a lot of the time it's set to 8meg so the line should sync at the best rate it can. I beleive they do set slower speeds on provision and thats probably in order to retain some stability.
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What happens if my line speed drops, will my speeds be limited as they are with BT's DSL Max?
No. There is no equivalent to BT's BRAS profiling. It is important to remember though that if the synch speed reduces, when the throughput speed will also reduce in line with that. If synch speed increases after a re-training, troughput will follow suit.
Should be the same as there is no mention of a similar system that limits the speed in that way.
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Are the Tiscali DSLAMs similar to those being installed by other LLU suppliers, i.e with the newer ADSL/ADSL2+ capable chipsets? Tiscali use Huawei hardware, in comparison to the equipment used by BT Wholesale which is sourced from multiple suppliers including Alcatel and Fujitsu.
Hard to know for sure but it would have been a clever idea to use ADSL 2+ capable equipment so they could upgrade the network in future without replacing the equipment. Probably would save them money in the long run too.
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Are there any potential compatibility problems between my hardware and the hardware at the exchange?
We are currently unaware of any specific compatibility problems between ADSL hardware and the exchange hardware, however we are interested in feedback from customers about their experience with different equipment.
Apart from minor equipment differences I'd agree with that.
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Can I connect with ADSL2/2+ equipment (and get upto 24 Mb speeds)? If so will I be capped to 8Mbps? Tiscali will provide ADSL2+ connections when the number of our customers on any exchange exceeds a given threshold (This ranges from exchange to exchange).
If you have an ADSL 2+ capable device, you will still be able to use this to connect to a non ADSL 2+ exchange. Once the exchange has been upgraded, the speed you receive will depend on the quality of your line and the product you have with us.
You won't be capped if you are on an upto 24Mb product.
Orange don't do ADSL 2+, yet. They'd be crazy not to in the future when BT Wholesale provide the service and most other providers start moving to it. It'll probably be on LLU first as through BT it sounds like it'll be at least 1-2 years for them to provide it. Also if BT try and do a national roll out, like they did with Max, then it'll be a lot longer as the whole network/majority of it would have to be upgraded first.
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When will the faster speeds be available?
As above, this will happen on a per exchange basis, faster speeds. We are working on an ADSL2+ trial on some specific exchanges, we will keep you updated on this.
Your guess is as good as mine although they need more bandwidth for added services, the TV over internet being the "biggie" so I'd expect them to be fairly close together when they start coming out.
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Faults / Problems
Is there an equivalent to BT's Speedtester for helping to isolate where a connection or speed issue may be? There is not currently a Speed tester equivalent, but we are discussing this with Tiscali.
As shown on some of the other LLU posts the BT speedtester gives an error for anyone on the LLU network. It simply can't access the details needed and monitor the speeds in the same way as on their hardware and network.
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What are the procedures for reporting faults, do they differ from non-LLU connections? From a customers point of view, the processes are similar - We need the same types of information and checks to be performed.
We do however communicate about customer faults with Tiscali in a different manner to BT. Due to the limitations of BTs "eCo"
system, which we use to log faults with BT currently, it can take up to 25 minutes to submit a fault.
Tiscali provide an automated tool that allows direct interaction with their fault system from inside our own customer management application ('workplace'). This means we can fill in a few fields on a customers account details and easily raise a fault with Tiscali. They then update us via email, where our Faults Team will then be able to supply subsequent updates to the customer.
We are working with both BT and Tiscali on updated versions of their systems to allow fully automated end to end handling of
faults in the future.
Very similar, for Orange all faults go through the one system in order to provide details to the supplier and provide updates.
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Does the automated fault-tool work for LLU connections?
Yes - It intelligently uses the right testing processes and asks questions based on the customer connection type.
Again very similar, it asks questions and the fault is put through for the right type depending on the answers.
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Any more questions?
We don't like leaving questions unanswered (If we do, it's because it's easy to miss things when we are busy). Please ask new questions or for clarification on any of the points here in the PUG forums, and we will try to keep this FAQ updated with any reasonable questions that we haven't covered so far.
*** Only querys, questions and specific discussion about these details in this thread please. I will delete anything that goes off topic or that isn't useful to try and keep the thread to the point. If you want to post anything considered like that please create your own thread or add to another.
Last edited by Elhana on Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total _________________
Pardon me if i misread a bit but interleaving on Orange is on.If you ask there tech support to turn it off and they have no idea what it is.i have it on and as you may have read i have been put on a fixed sync speed of 608kbs as according to these fools my line cannot take 2mb they cannot explain how i had 2 mb for over a year but they say i probably can have it if i renew my contract for a year, 7 weeks to BE.
Pardon me if i misread a bit but interleaving on Orange is on.If you ask there tech support to turn it off and they have no idea what it is.i have it on and as you may have read i have been put on a fixed sync speed of 608kbs as according to these fools my line cannot take 2mb they cannot explain how i had 2 mb for over a year but they say i probably can have it if i renew my contract for a year, 7 weeks to BE.
By default interleave is off from what I've seen, also I've not noticed any with it on from the people who have posted their line details on the forum, though I could have overlooked it.
It could be an option that the system turns on when it believes there's a problem or can be turned on due to a submitted fault, like on ADSL Max, but so far never really seen it like that myself.
Thanks for this, very interesting reading I am surprised by the detail PlusNet had gone into, BE also has a good FAQ. This is something which Orange would never do as I suspect they far too much to lose by doing so.
There are a few things I picked up from this post:
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Which of your customers are you transferring to LLU?
We have started by transferring customers from PlusNet, Force9 and Free-Online. At the moment we do not have any plans to transfer Business customers or users of the Metronet service to LLU. Additionally, no PAYG customers are currently being transferred to LLU.
Please bear in mind that you are only able to do this prior to an order being placed on your line to transfer your service to LLU. As the order process takes around a month from being placed, if you wish to opt-out you should do it immediately. This opt-out scheme was introduced because of difficulties with migrating away from an LLU service when our first customers were transferred. A Migration trial is now in place which can be used by our customers, however as this is only a trial, the option to opt-out will be continued until there is a business as usual process for switching between LLU and IPStream. More details about migrations are included later in this FAQ.
Can I opt-in to being moved to LLU?
Not currently. However if you have opted-out we may offer you the option to change your mind in the future, especially if there is significant demand for this. There may be a charge to move to LLU at a later date, although this is as yet undecided.
You could imagine what would happen if there was an opt-out with Orange (I'm assuming the opt-out would be to go onto ADSLMAX). No-way would Orange do this- too much profit at stake.
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What experience do you think most customers get?
We recently ran an on-line survey asking randomly selected Tiscali transferred customers this question. Where LLU works (In over 90% of cases), it seems to work very well indeed and customers either noticed no difference or said they were more than satisfied. Where customers experienced problems however it is clear that they have been severely impacted and we recognise the urgent need to ensure the causes of these issues get resolved.
The average per customer usage does increase when people are moved to LLU, and this suggests a better throughput than the equivalent BT service.
Yes, yes the Orange LLU speed issues! There are a lot of people who really don't notice any real change when they are migrated to LLU.
I think you will find those that actually moved onto LLU (moved from ADSLMAX to LLU), do experience a change for the worst. And this is highlighted even more so when they move away from Orange LLU to another ISP when they get improved performance. As far as I am aware from reports here and on others places, people that have moved away from Orange who have been on LLU have got better speeds.
If, by what you mean, most customers that move to Orange LLU don't notice any real change in respect to 'Satisfied with service, but not actually getting what they've paid for', then I agree. I'm always wary about any stats generated in-house, because any stats which are quoted will always be favourable- this part of Tiscalis FAQ smells of propaganda.
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At some newly enabled exchanges the DSLAM had not been correctly configured by Tiscali to route traffic to our network before customers were first activated.
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Some customers are also reporting lower speeds compared to the Max products they were previously on. This is due to interleaving and a higher signal to noise ratio, which is designed to make the connection more stable. We will have advanced internal tools available to change this profile for customers who report a problem in the near future.
These two paragraphs are interesting. With respect to Orange, It could be said that Orange lacks 'the advanced internal tools' to change people, say who get half meg- i.e. limitation of Oranges LLU equipment/Software.
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What are the downstream speeds available on LLU products?
Upto 8000kbps.
What are the upstream speeds available on LLU products?
Upto 800kbps.
These stats are awfully good, or are these just theoretical speeds on paper like Oranges 'Up to 8 meg' claims. If these stats about Tiscalis LLU products are true, and such speeds were attained, then this just strengthens the argument that Oranges LLU just was never fit for the purpose to provide high speed.
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How is it decided what speed a line is capable of and what bandwidth profiles are used (within PlusNet's and the LLU providers network)?
Tiscali assign a default DSLAM profile of a rate adaptive 8000kbps service. At our end, a script is run every day to pick up any newly migrated platform, and the restrictions at our end are duly lifted to 8000kbps.
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Is there an initial training period or equivalent such as that seen with BT's DSL Max? If so how does it work?
No. The 8000kbps rate adaptive profile is assigned by Tiscali as default. This means that at every Synch event the line will adopt the highest profile available based on the quality of the line.
This FAQ only serves to confirm many ways why Orange cannot/does not give people high speeds with LLU. It could stand to reason that those still on half meg are actually on a DSLAM profile for a half meg service?? When I was switched over to LLU (approx dec 2005) at this time there was no 8 meg service from Orange therefore there was no 8000kbs rate adaptive profile. Come Dec 2006, I 'upgrade' to the 8meg package and I experience no regrading or testing- my line was not at touched all. So therefore I must be stuck on a profile for half meg?!? SOo many questions...
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Are the Tiscali DSLAMs similar to those being installed by other LLU suppliers, i.e with the newer ADSL/ADSL2+ capable chipsets?
Tiscali use Huawei hardware, in comparison to the equipment used by BT Wholesale which is sourced from multiple suppliers including Alcatel and Fujitsu.
For your info: http://www.huawei.com/
Hard to know for sure but it would have been a clever idea to use ADSL 2+ capable equipment so they could upgrade the network in future without replacing the equipment. Probably would save them money in the long run too.
I think this is the key, I am flumoxxed as to why no one who works directly with Oranges LLU network has come forwards to shed light- all this cloak and dagger sh!t about the LLU network only serves to highlight that Orange has got something to hide. It's likely most of Oranges LLU network runs off dated hardware. Most definitely at the time of the first exchanges to get Orange LLU (mid-2006?) ADSL2+ was not available.
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Orange don't do ADSL 2+, yet. They'd be crazy not to in the future when BT Wholesale provide the service and most other providers start moving to it. It'll probably be on LLU first as through BT it sounds like it'll be at least 1-2 years for them to provide it. Also if BT try and do a national roll out, like they did with Max, then it'll be a lot longer as the whole network/majority of it would have to be upgraded first.
Elhana, Orange won't have 1-2 years to do this. Their plans to provide new services by the end of this year will rely on high speed bb. If they do not address these problems now, the problems they have now will pale in comparison.
Theres yet more to gleam from this FAQ, so I may come back to other aspects. However this should be put into perspective. This was written in 28/07/2006 so one would think Tiscali/PlusNet would have got their act together and work out 'problems' and provide a great service- thats 8 months to work on them. On Thinkbroad.com on 16/08/06 this was reported:
Orange won't be addressing its terrible LLU network anytime soon, I'm sure there is some plan to do so in the future, I brought this up on this thread:
http://www.orangeproblems.co.u...ight=#9342
To get changes done now would be to force their hand. If, theoretically speaking, there was a large exodus of customers- Orange would have no choice but to do something. At the moment, you will be expected to accept excuses or pay them off to leave, but there will be no Solution right now.
Thanks for this Elhana, though it raises more questions than answers, it certainly confirms a few things.
Consumer ADSL 2+ equipment first came out in roughly 2003, possibly before that as I didn't dig deep, actually I got that from the first link when I googled. Thats well before Orange's LLU and ADSL Max ever came out.
As for the the speeds they will undoubtly include overheads so even with a perfect 8 meg connection you'll never see those speeds when actually using it. There's not much to really say on speeds for the moment until those issues are resolved.
Although this FAQ is very useful as a comparison don't rely on it completely as there could be a bunch of things or system differences between them that make them work in very different ways.
Irrespective of whether the consumer equipment for ADSL2+ was available in 2003. It clear that the LLU equipment Orange had decided to go with does not have ADSL2+ capacity
Its not until recently that ADSL2+ is being exploited- the major players being BE, whose LLU system uses ADSL2+, hence which is why they can boast Up to 24 megs. The more and more I read about LLU equipment, the more I am convinced Oranges problems are hardware related- the current performance of Oranges LLU is at its maximum, and its most likely not a case of 'upgrading' but replacing existing equipment. Also, the case of 'stuck' profiles e.g. those stuck on half meg must mean it is an aspect of the system that it is not possible to change the profile.
From someone that works at Orange, Elhana, aren't you wondering what is exactly going on with its LLU network, and if so have you ever enquired? You seem to have the knowledge and demenour of someone who is above the average Orange agent, so it would stand to reason that you of all people is in a perfect position to get this info?
Irrespective of whether the consumer equipment for ADSL2+ was available in 2003. It clear that the LLU equipment Orange had decided to go with does not have ADSL2+ capacity
Actually it's not clear at all. As I said they should have gone for ADSL 2+ capable equipment as it would save money in the long term. It won't be used yet for one simple reason, the livebox can't do 2+. There is a french verison that can but they're probably going to wait and have a new box made especially for it.
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Its not until recently that ADSL2+ is being exploited- the major players being BE, whose LLU system uses ADSL2+, hence which is why they can boast Up to 24 megs. The more and more I read about LLU equipment, the more I am convinced Oranges problems are hardware related- the current performance of Oranges LLU is at its maximum, and its most likely not a case of 'upgrading' but replacing existing equipment. Also, the case of 'stuck' profiles e.g. those stuck on half meg must mean it is an aspect of the system that it is not possible to change the profile.
It was well over 10 months from BE starting up until Orange began with LLU.
Anyway I'm not convinced it's down to the hardware.
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From someone that works at Orange, Elhana, aren't you wondering what is exactly going on with its LLU network, and if so have you ever enquired? You seem to have the knowledge and demenour of someone who is above the average Orange agent, so it would stand to reason that you of all people is in a perfect position to get this info?
Not as perfect as you think. I get what information that I can.
Actually it's not clear at all. As I said they should have gone for ADSL 2+ capable equipment as it would save money in the long term. It won't be used yet for one simple reason, the livebox can't do 2+. There is a french verison that can but they're probably going to wait and have a new box made especially for it.
This I was not aware of, and the implications of this insinuate a wider picture. I assumed it was only the exchange hardware that would need to be able to pump ADSL2+, while the receiving modem/livebox would be able to handle it. As this is not the case with the livebox, either Orange choose to omit ADSL2+ capability in the livebox (possibly saving pennies at the time) because they have no intention of supplying 24meg or it was gross oversight. If Orange are going to go down the ADSL2+ route whats the chances they'll expect the customer to fork out for the modem- its not like the livebox is old tech, I doubt they'll just let us keep it ala green frog.
Seems to me ADSL2+ isn't going to be a factor in Oranges strategy as I reckon they feel '8megs' is more than enough it comes to tv streaming.
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It was well over 10 months from BE starting up until Orange began with LLU.
Anyway I'm not convinced it's down to the hardware.
Agreed, BE is relatively a new setup, which stands to reason that the tech they are using is more current.
In your opinion, what do you think is the cause of the speed issues of Oranges LLU?
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Not as perfect as you think. I get what information that I can.
Because Orange won't let you? , Joking aside, any info you do get will be much appreciated. It's very surprising how they can acknowledge that there are problems, but not specifically say what those problems are- hope it not gremlins, those pesky mogwais...
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As this is not the case with the livebox, either Orange choose to omit ADSL2+ capability in the livebox (possibly saving pennies at the time) because they have no intention of supplying 24meg or it was gross oversight. If Orange are going to go down the ADSL2+ route whats the chances they'll expect the customer to fork out for the modem- its not like the livebox is old tech, I doubt they'll just let us keep it ala green frog.
The livebox came out 2 months before BE existed and I believe it was simply adapted from current hardware at the time. It doesn't support 2+ but does 2, practically everyone's avoiding ADSL 2 though as it's easier to just jump straight to 2+.
As for buying whatever box comes next, I doubt it, they'll probably just go for the same "new package, new contract, free box" option.
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Seems to me ADSL2+ isn't going to be a factor in Oranges strategy as I reckon they feel '8megs' is more than enough it comes to tv streaming.
For TV streaming it runs over about 2 meg. They're not going to let people simply wipe out lower speed connections so there will be a speed requirement. BT are doing the same thing with Vision, you really need Max to get it and will really start coming into it's own with 2+ running.
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Agreed, BE is relatively a new setup, which stands to reason that the tech they are using is more current.
In your opinion, what do you think is the cause of the speed issues of Oranges LLU?
I can't really say specifically what I know on that but I have given ideas and impressions on it in other threads.
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Because Orange won't let you? , Joking aside, any info you do get will be much appreciated. It's very surprising how they can acknowledge that there are problems, but not specifically say what those problems are- hope it not gremlins, those pesky mogwais...
It's just how they've been for a long time, they don't go into specifics of problems for the most part. As I said I get what info I can, but it's not like I have direct access to that sort of stuff.
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they cannot explain how i had 2 mb for over a year but they say i probably can have it if i renew my contract for a year, 7 weeks to BE.
, Joking aside, any info you do get will be much appreciated. It's very surprising how they can acknowledge that there are problems, but not specifically say what those problems are- hope it not gremlins, those pesky mogwais...
