This is my first posting on Orange Problems, and I will tell you straight away that I currently work as a Tech Support Agent for one of the outsourced call centres referred to by convergence. I would like to set the record straight on a few issues that have emerged as a result of this post in no particular order........
1) Many (but as in ANY organisation no means all) people employed to work on behalf of Orange in the outsourced call centres care about the people they speak to and the problems they are having, Myself and many of my colleagues just want to help. I have in the past month set up Livebox to work with Vista RC1, several MACS, a couple of XBOXes and Nintendo Wii and even a Blackberry! We DONT and cannot be expected to officially support these connections but we will help if we can. You have to draw the line somewhere.
2) Outsourced agents recieve half yearly bonuses based on quantative and QUALITY standards - so if we do a good job we get rewarded financially just as convergence does, but in a different way. The better we do, the more money we get.
3) The support tools and IT resources used by convergence and the outsourced call centres are identical. We are targeted on using these tools to their fullest extent.
4) We are not all snotty nosed students who couldn't give a *!!*. Among our staff we have MCSE's, MCP's and people with many years computer industry experience - and many of these guys are taking frontline calls trying to solve the issues. These people are also used to coach and nurture the more novice agents - didn't we all have to start learning somewhere?
5) Line tests - The way Orange handle line tests is unsatisfatory in my opinion (asking customers to repeatedly call back etc.) but as convergence knows these are systems set out by Orange Exec and we have to do it in the way we are told, The systems that exists are flawed, but there is no other way of hadling these issues at the moment.
6) The outsourced call centres are not fearing for their jobs, in fact outsourced capacity is being increased in the UK and India in Tech and other departments. Note that the Customer Care function is completly outsourced and as far as I am aware will remain so.
7) If Orange/outsourced Orange employees are at war with each other then it is the first I've heard of it! I generally have a good relationship with the convergence team and we can usually work together to get a fix. Where problems do occur is when agents WHETHER DIRECT Orange OR OUTSOURCED are unwilling to take a degree of ownership. Lets be fair that can and does happen in any organisation big or small. I'm afraid that this problem does exists everywhere in Orange - Convergence team included.
There are several serious factual errors in convergence's original post - BUT I am not in the business of airing these on a public forum,
9) Lastly I am simply writing to let you know some of us care about the service we provide. Believe it or not I do actually care when an Orange customer get a poor service and ultimately leaves us for another ISP. Its barmy for me not too! Why would it possibly be in my interest to spend 8hrs a day being a 'jobsworth' and find good excuses not to help people out? What you don't hear about on this forum (quite understandably, by its nature) are the myriad of people who are happy with Orange service and have been surprised and delighted by the help we have been able to offer.
PS That last sentence is not designed to belittle the problems of any individual or Orange issues in general (they are real and I have to deal with these every day), but just to try and introduce a little balance.
1) Many (but as in ANY organisation no means all) people employed to work on behalf of Orange in the outsourced call centres care about the people they speak to and the problems they are having
Yes, I am sure you are right, but caring and not fixing the problems do not go hand in hand with most customers. All they want is the service they are paying for.
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You have to draw the line somewhere.
And so do customers. Hence the reason they become frustrated and air their anger when things do not get done.
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These people are also used to coach and nurture the more novice agents - didn't we all have to start learning somewhere?
Braodband is a complex product and requires a sound background in datacomms to fully understand it. This can only be acheived through proper training. The 'Sitting By Nellie' approach to training that you highlight never works successfully. To many bad habits passed on with the good.
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What you don't hear about on this forum (quite understandably, by its nature) are the myriad of people who are happy with Orange service
Thats true, but unfortunately consistent poor service will always bubble to the top. The mark of service excellence is how well a company manages its customers problems and expectations. Unfortunately, Orange appear not to be out of the blocks in this area at present. Service excellence is a topdown mechanism and this is why I think Orange are having so many problems. The Orange management do not seem to understand this concept or be part of it.
Hmmm right . Never in all my time calling various places have I seen a 1st line support bod with more iq than an amoeba .
I treat techsupport lines as a challenge . See how quick it takes to bypass the script and be passed to the next tier . Keep at it and eventually you will get to speak to someone who knows what they are on about .
I dont have a problem with my Orange connection and if it goes wrong Im well equipped to deal with support .
My brother in law on the other hand also on Orange has developed a fault .
Up until a few days ago his connection was sound . Good solid connection profiled to around 7mbps .
I was over there this weekend and noticed the latency spiking when we were playing WoW nothing new with WoW but nobody else was getting it and 2600ms lag is awful .
Checks his livebox and its synced up at its usual speeds . Refreshes the stats and the line stats for attenuation and noise margin have changed . Reboots and they have changed again .
Hmm not so good . Runs a speedtest from speedtester.BT.com and the line profile has fell to 3500 and throughput is down to 335kbps . Livebox is now registering interleave mode .
This does not bode well so I tell him to call Orange the next day and get it looked into . He then says "I wonder if this is why the microfilter on the phone blew" Checks supposed blown filter and its ok . He says the line was squealing .
This to me says Line Fault . Tells him to call BT as well as Orange and report it as an intermittent line fault to BT as the squealing has stopped .
Orange says "Call BT on 151 and ask them to change the line back , they have done this as its cheaper for them" what utter rot .
He calls BT and spends nearly an hour trying to reiterate what Orange said and the problem to them . Unsurprisingly after confusing about 6 people they refer him back to Orange as its "Not our department , Your isp needs to talk to BT wholesale to effect the change" .
Calls Orange back and they tell him its very likely his livebox thats changed the mode .
He's losing his rag at this point I can tell by the irate ramblings appearing in msn .
This is a line error and the change to interleave is the exchange trying to correct the error . Fiddling with the livebox and asking btw to change the mode back will not do anything .
It took him nearly 3 more hours of ringing customer support and tech support to get it through to them it was an issue on the line and nothing to do with his gear .
His line is now being tested by both BT and Orange and as his area has had a lot of rain and snow BT are thinking waters getting in somewhere .
Also some fool at Orange told him to test his line at (and no this isnt a typo) phinkbroadband.com . Wonderful an advert site playing on a typo of thinkbroadband.com .
why use a standard speedtest when the BT one gives you a ton more useful info .
As for mcp and mcse people please ...... "get an mcse in just 7 days" not worth the paper its printed on . I know several that wouldnt know how to diagnose the components in a cup of tea correctly .
And as for knowing how to connect up various devices . Bravo its hardly rocket science now is it as the people that had to work it out have put it in places like this so chimps can copy it and appear omnipotent .
Bit like the Liveprinter we had that sussed before you lot even released the software for which your rapidly running out of January btw.
Some people care . If you care so much whats your direct line number so we can all call you ? .
Er....I think I have a little more IQ than an amoeba, I'm flattered - I must be unique!
Much as I would like to give out a direct number on a public forum, it doesn't take someone with an IQ larger an amoeba to work out my line might just be a little engaged!!
Seriously, 1st line tech has a job to do and to be honest I think we do it ok at Orange. You berate scripts but they have their place you know.....it means that the usual mundane stuff 1st line tech agents deal with every day GET FIXED, you the stuff that doesn't end up here. Many of us go off script to get the fix done anyway.
With Orange I think the process away from 1st line tech are the ones that need looking at and this is partly the reason for the horror stories.
It Just strikes me with the attitude displayed here I can't win.........if I read the forums (in my own time incidentally), pick up some tasty workrounds (many of which I already knew anyway) and help people BEYOND MY REMIT I am accused of being an omnipotent chimp. If I apply the letter of the law, read my script and don't help then I am an unhelpful amoeba. Hmmmm.
Yeah, MCSE's, MCP's may not count for much but then the same can be said about degrees from the 'Univeristy of Chavhampton' which open the door to many of the 'professions'. I only mentioned these things to counter the perception that Outsourced Orange Tech do not have any high level tech skills. Well, they do - my tech history goes waaaay back to Novell NetWare v2.15, DOS and 286 PC's. I mention this NOT to blow my own trumpet, but just to highlight many Orange Tech agents have a tech background and simply try to help by using this on the frontline and sharing it with less experienced colleagues. Think about it......If I didn't care, I wouldn't even bother to read this forum.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings, I know my place.......back to the primeval soup for dinner then....
If you really want to help then get answering posts . I appreciate this is your spare time . Its ours as well . Do something positive . If you know theres a problem with something or a newly discovered issue then tell us . If we work together then maybe you will get less irate customers . Suggest it to the higher ups . If you and a few other help out on boarda like this it makes you accessible . Seriously , help us out here .
Seriously, 1st line tech has a job to do and to be honest I think we do it ok at Orange.
Well I don't see what you see from all the complaints of unfixed faults.
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You berate scripts but they have their place you know.....it means that the usual mundane stuff 1st line tech agents deal with every day GET FIXED
Perhaps Orange should post the scripts on their website and save themselves a fortune which could be spent on real technical support.
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With Orange I think the process away from 1st line tech are the ones that need looking at and this is partly the reason for the horror stories.
Really, then why are so many people complaining about this lot. As they say 'no smoke without fire'
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if I read the forums (in my own time incidentally)
don't we all, could argue that should'nt have to if the problems were being fixed.
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my tech history goes waaaay back to Novell NetWare v2.15, DOS and 286 PC's.
Fine, but broadband is a complex product and without a full understanding of the network in total, its processes and functions it matters not what you know about Novell, Dos or PC's.
So, who's in the best position to know about the number of unfixed faults, an outsider or insder???? Hmmm, work it out for yourself! By their very nature forums such as this are heavily unbalanced. I have no problem with that and I for one appreciate the opportunity to see the problems and issues customers have and their views on it when it all goes pear shaped. But don't fooled into thinking these problems represent the whole picture, they don't.
A lot of the 'Knowledge Base' scripts ARE on the Orange webiste under the 'Help & Support' section. Trouble is - how do you refer to those without a working BB connection?????
I agree completly that BB is a complex product. I was configuring and specifying WAN corporate networks in the early 90's and understand (for example) how the OSI 7-layer model works, how protocols work etc and stuff that directly relates to networking in general and BB in particular. You may think that may mean zippo when you are talking about consumer BB but believe you me it teaches you how the think through an issue, in the light of a known good configuration. IE: PC----LIVEBOX----BT LINE----EXCHANGE----ORANGE SERVER----INTERNET should work and if it doesn't then you break down by process of elimination where the issues lie. This is good practice in ANY tech support situation, irrespective of product type, level, seniority and background.
I read these forums in order to try and do my job better - any crime in that? Perhaps you're right I shouldn't have to, but just pointing out by virtue of the fact I am writing this now I do care about a) the company I represent and b) the minority of its customers who feeel so P*!!*d off they have to resort to using this forum. No it shouldn't be!
A lot of the 'Knowledge Base' scripts ARE on the Orange webiste under the 'Help & Support' section. Trouble is - how do you refer to those without a working BB connection?????
Simple, use a friends or colleagues PC or even better print them off when we have a working BB so that we can read them like scripts when things go wrong
Joined: 10 Aug 2006Posts: 47Location: Hampshire, UK
tvman wrote:
someofuscare wrote:
A lot of the 'Knowledge Base' scripts ARE on the Orange webiste under the 'Help & Support' section. Trouble is - how do you refer to those without a working BB connection?????
Simple, use a friends or colleagues PC or even better print them off when we have a working BB so that we can read them like scripts when things go wrong
Do you always look to find fault in someone even if they are trying?
Do you always look to find fault in someone even if they are trying?
No, unless statements of fact fall into that category. If I feel in my opinion that someones comments are questionable then yes I will challenge them. No one forces anyone to post here but when someone does they do so in the knowledge that some will agree with them and some will disagree. Afterall, thats the nature of a forum. Equally, if anyone does not like what they see from a particular poster they are at liberty to ignore it.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006Posts: 47Location: Hampshire, UK
tvman wrote:
Prettyboy wrote:
Do you always look to find fault in someone even if they are trying?
No, unless statements of fact fall into that category. If I feel in my opinion that someones comments are questionable then yes I will challenge them. No one forces anyone to post here but when someone does they do so in the knowledge that some will agree with them and some will disagree. Afterall, thats the nature of a forum. Equally, if anyone does not like what they see from a particular poster they are at liberty to ignore it.
I don't disagree with your last statement whatsoever on the subject of being able to ignore. I feel that the vast majority of your posts on here are extremely useful and vital to this form of forum. People like yourself who can critique a post with the benefit of technical knowledge and can write coherently are clearly needed. However in my opinion when someone posts on here trying to explain their situation and give some feedback of issues etc and have countered previous points of yours, for instance about their knowledge of networks, you seldom show any form of humility in your reply, you purely pick out the point you next disagree with and run with that.
Would you argue that it is a good thing that posters such as someofuscare are using this website?
I believe it is, and I think it is important for users of this forum to constructively criticize the comments he or she makes and give positive feedback. I would hate to see this user and similar ones on other forums stop writing as they feel they are fighting against a brick wall.
This is why I felt I could not simply ignore your comment.
you seldom show any form of humility in your reply, you purely pick out the point you next disagree with and run with that.
This will be the bit about picking faults that you mentioned earlier. If I disagree with a poster then I will say so without malice or personal attack. Just like to put it as it is in an objective manner. Show me in any of my posts where I have personally attacked any Orange satff member. Yes, I may make adverse commments about Orange as a company but never on individuals. If putting ones case is seen as picking fault then I'm guilty. Their are a lot of disgruntled customers here and anyone who comes on here and posts in defence of Orange when others know otherwise is very brave. They must be aware before doing so that they run the risk of being challenged. At least my challenges are objective and non personal. Look around on this forum and you will find some pretty choice names being used for some of the Orange staff. Not right I agree but thats sometimes the result of customer frustration.
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Would you argue that it is a good thing that posters such as someofuscare are using this website? I believe it is, and I think it is important for users of this forum to constructively criticize the comments he or she makes and give positive feedback. I would hate to see this user and similar ones on other forums stop writing as they feel they are fighting against a brick wall.
No arguement about it. It is the choice of each individual who comes to this site to decide whether to post or not. Always try to constructively critizize but accept that some may see such approach in a differnet light. Can't please all of the people all of the time!!! If they feel they are fighting against a brick wall when they go on a forum to defend Orange then think about the poor sods who feel exactly the same everytime they phone Orange with a problem. It does not stop them from phoning back in though. There is another poster on this forum who also works for Orange but takes a more subtle approach and very rarely gets challenged.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006Posts: 47Location: Hampshire, UK
Hi,
sorry I might have not made myself clear enough, I have never felt that you have personally attacked any Orange staff member, and I don't believe for a second that you would lower yourself to doing so. I thought I would make that clear as I hope you read from my previous post that I believe you make a needed and valid contribution to this forum and I would not aim to misrepresent you.
When I said about the humility part I did not mean it in 'picking faults' more in that you don't seem to often 'pick positives' which was why I was saying later on the bit about giving positive feedback as well. I don't see your constructive criticism in a different light, I see it as constructive criticism, I just feel that you could also constructively discuss the positives as well.
When you speak about Orange staff coming on here and being challenged I think it is good that they are, I just wish that it wasn't only the technical support members of staff on here but people more senior, but realistically I doubt that will ever happen.
I hope that the able technical support staff challenge the procedures that they have to use with those above them, but I feel that just as customers are fighting against a brick wall to get faults dealt with efficiently, technical support are going to have about the same chance getting inefficient procedures changed for the better any time soon.
I hope that the able technical support staff challenge the procedures that they have to use with those above them, but I feel that just as customers are fighting against a brick wall to get faults dealt with efficiently, technical support are going to have about the same chance getting inefficient procedures changed for the better any time soon.
We certainly do! Some of our feedback is finally being taken on board and new procedures are being developed for roll out in the next few months. (Don't ask me details, I simply don't know them yet).
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There are several serious factual errors in convergence's original post - BUT I am not in the business of airing these on a public forum,
