I have tried connecting to the test plug in the BT socket as advised by other members but the result was just the same, I have to make a connection by lifting the phone to initialise the modem.
OK, so you've got an NTE5 master. Did you connect modem direct to filter direct to test socket? Have you any extension wiring, and if so is it connected to the rear of the faceplate? Have you been able to try with a 2nd filter? Do you have a corded phone?
We really need more detailed information to give further advice. No problem if you don't want to answer any of this. I'll get the message if you don't respond again
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Can I ask what your kbps. was before Monday,
I was going to ask snow2004 that, and also if he's using a livebox.
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I am really a novice at all this, but willing to learn..(busy doing searches on 'attenuation' and 'noise margins'.. really!).
Once you've got the hang of that, research High Resistance faults on phone lines. Don't baffle Orange Tech Support with science when you phone them
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this business of having to connect via phone is no big deal
There's probably more to it than that. It will be reducing your line speed and making your connection unstable. I don't know what your line speed was when you got these stats:
ReceiveAttenuation_dB= 57
ReceiveMargin_dB= 4
but on a good line it should have been approx 3 to 4Mbps.
Please don't spend money on a faceplate yet. I suspect you'll need to spend it on the phone to Orange persuading them that you've got a line fault.
Today after further messing about I concluded that to enable the Speedtouch 330 modem to connect ( after boot-up) I have to do one of two things:
1. Take the phone (BT freestyle 2500) out of the base cradle press the ‘talk button’ (in affect like taking a corded phone off the receiver) and dial out (any number e.g. 1471... it does not even need to connect)... the modem instantly initialises.
OR
2. Take phone out of the base cradle press the talk button and then press the
‘hands free button’... (Do not dial anything)... the modem instantly initialises.
Once again to re-iterate, this problem only started on the 14th August when Orange performed the ‘upgrade’. I have done nothing to any of my equipment.
Would this confirm your theory regards high resistance? and if so how would you recommend I go about rectifying this problem.
Thanks once again to you and all the other members for their wonderful assistance.
My kbps was 512 prior to 14th August (the update day). It now stands at 608 kbps.
Yes I do have a NTE5 master.
Later today (when I get back home) I will attempt to connect modem and filter directly to test socket. (did it without filter on Monday doh!).
I have 3 metre of continuous extension wiring between the NTE5 master and the phone and PC., although I don’t understand your question: ‘if so is it connected to the rear of the faceplate?’, it connects to the front of the NTE5… sorry I do not have a faceplate.. not spent the money as you advise!
I am borrowing a corded phone and a second (unused Speedtouch filter), again later today to test.
Will let you know the results… sorry my reply was delayed.
My kbps was 512 prior to 14th August (the update day). It now stands at 608 kbps.
Yes I do have a NTE5 master.
Later today (when I get back home) I will attempt to connect modem and filter directly to test socket. (did it without filter on Monday doh!).
I have 3 metre of continuous extension wiring between the NTE5 master and the phone and PC., although I don’t understand your question: ‘if so is it connected to the rear of the faceplate?’, it connects to the front of the NTE5… sorry I do not have a faceplate.. not spent the money as you advise!
I am borrowing a corded phone and a second (unused Speedtouch filter), again later today to test.
Will let you know the results… sorry my reply was delayed.
Many thanks,
Dave.
Hi its me again. It really does sound like the behaviour of a classic high resistance fault.
Basically a high resistance fault is a is when there is a bad/joint on the line that has a high electirical resistance. However this improves when a stronger current passes through the wire. eg when making a phone call. Most people with this fault dial something like 1471 to get the connection going.
I urge you to get in contact with Orange and state you have a high resistance fualt and get them to pass this on to BT, who will hopefully get an engineer on to the problem. This may require some nagging but it may not. Best of luck.
Re. all the questions. You'll prob. have to go through all this with Orange before they'll accept that you have a line fault and escalate to the LLU engineers. I think a HR line fault is by far the most likely explanation for your symptoms.
curlydave wrote:
My kbps was 512 prior to 14th August (the update day) now stands at 608 kbps.
If your line speed was 608kbps when your attenuation was 57dB and noise margin 4dB, then you have got problems.
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although I don’t understand your question: ‘if so is it connected to the rear of the faceplate?’, it connects to the front of the NTE5…
Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part. The NTE5 faceplates (normal and ADSL ones) have connections on the back for fixed extension wiring. I assume from what you say that you don't have any fixed extension sockets.
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I am borrowing a corded phone and a second (unused Speedtouch filter), again later today to test.
Again, Orange will probably insist that you try this before they'll escalate a fault.
Re. testing for HR fault. There's no definitive test but there are a couple of things you can try. Note that for these tests you should directly use the test socket on back plate of the NTE5 (i.e. no extension wiring involved) and you should use a corded phone.
1) Connect phone > filter > test socket. Dial 17070, choose option 2(quiet line test) and have a good listen. If there's any line noise, try a 2nd corded phone to rule out problems with the first. Then while you're still listening, connect the modem to the filter and continue to listen as the modem synchs. Can you hear anything? Continue to listen for a few mins after the modem has synch'ed - any line noise now? Finally disconnect modem from filter and listen for a few more mins.
* Note that you shouldn't use 17070 during office hours.
2) Disconnect everything from your line for several hours (maybe overnight). Then connect modem > filter > test socket. Does the modem synch? If not connect phone and make a long call. As soon as the modem has synch'ed check your line stats (upstream and downstream, line speed, attenuation, noise margin) Ten minutes into the call, with call still in progress, check line stats again. Any changes? Any losses of synch during the 10 mins?
(I should mention here that I don't think the Livebox is any use for test 2 because it doesn't appear to update the noise margin value displayed. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's seen the Livebox noise margin display change without a re-synch.
Also it doesn't show upstream attenuation and noise margin.)
If possible, leave your phone disconnected from the line while Orange are running their line tests.
When Orange escalate to the engineers it's important that you get them to pass on the info that the modem will only synch when the phone is off-hook. Stress that the modem won't synch at all when it's the only thing connected to the line.
It looks like the problem was introduced when your line was connected to the LLU equipment in the exchange so it might well be fixed by changing ISPs
Tell me more about you having to lift the phone to establish a connection as this could sound like some sort of of high resistance fualt on your line.
Nice to meet someone else here who knows about HR faults. Nobody at Orange seems to have heard of them
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Which would mean a connection can only be made when the phone is off the hook.
Sadly symptoms aren't always as limited and as clear cut as this. They can cause mayhem on rate adaptive lines.
Can I ask if you're using a Livebox and also is your noise margin is 7.1dB immediately after synch.
Thanks.
Hi John yes I am using the livebox. Yes the noise margin is 7.1 immediatly after sync. I thinks it dropped to 6.1 once and downstairs in the test socket it was 8.1. The speed seemed to be fixed at 5632 kbps which is good.
Maybe you could help me here. I would like to no despite all my tweaking ( MTU , RWIN , etc ) and optimisations why i cannot get the throughput to rise any higher than around 2800 kbps morning, afternoon and late evening despite my 5.6 meg sync. It seems rather low to me.
Is this just CRC errors on the line affecting max throughput. or just lack of capacity on Oranges network maybe.
Thanks to JohnM and snow2004 for your expert advice and suggestions.
Due to unforeseen circumstances I am away from the PC with the ADSL fault until Monday (27/9), but rest assured I will let you know the results of all your recommendations on Monday evening.
In the meantime Pipex (my telecoms provider) are undertaking a line test, the results of which I will know in the next 72 hours.. and I will also forward that outcome to you.
Thanks once again for all your help and have a good weekend.
Hi John yes I am using the livebox. Yes the noise margin is 7.1 immediatly after sync. I thinks it dropped to 6.1 once and downstairs in the test socket it was 8.1. The speed seemed to be fixed at 5632 kbps which is good.
Thanks. Interesting stuff. So your line speed has always been 5632kbps regardless of the noise margin. Stats posted on here previously suggested there was a target margin of 6.5dB. Aren't you tempted to introduce some noise onto the line and see what happens
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Maybe you could help me here. I would like to no despite all my tweaking ( MTU , RWIN , etc ) and optimisations why i cannot get the throughput to rise any higher than around 2800 kbps morning, afternoon and late evening despite my 5.6 meg sync. It seems rather low to me.
Is this just CRC errors on the line affecting max throughput. or just lack of capacity on Oranges network maybe.
Yeah, there's a few Orange LLU customers on here with the same complaint. E.g. see posts by johnr3 . Must be contention/traffic management.
I'm on Orange 2Mbps IPstream and get reasonable speeds. I'm very happy that my exchange has ADSLmax but not Orange LLU.
He he Im glad i have 5.6 meg wouldnt want to lose it by makin noise on the line lol !! About a year ago the line was so bad for some reason the noise margin was only 13 db at 2 meg.
Like you said John it must be contention keeping my connection from achieving a download speed closer to the sync speed. Would be nice if they sorted it out.
What i would really like also is for more upload speed. Do you know of any plans to increase this. Perhaps with adsl 2 or somethin. 576 kbps + would be great.
He he Im glad i have 5.6 meg wouldnt want to lose it by makin noise on the line lol !!
Where's your spirit of adventure?
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About a year ago the line was so bad for some reason the noise margin was only 13 db at 2 meg.
It's certainly improved since then.
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What i would really like also is for more upload speed. Do you know of any plans to increase this. Perhaps with adsl 2 or somethin. 576 kbps + would be great.
Haven't seen any annoucements - could be a few years yet. I guess you already know that you could increase upstream line speed from 288 to 448kbps by moving from Orange LLU to ADSLmax. Or, if you're prepared to pay for it, you can get 832kbps upstream on ADSLmax Premium.
Hi i was just browsing this forum to see if anyone had the same problem as i was having, and it appears this one is very similar to mine.
When i DO get connected my speed is also 608K (this was after a update 5 months ago, which before then it was 512K).
However i don't think the problem i am having is Orange's fault as this problem happend when i first got broadband with Virgin (only had it for about 5 days because it never connected once). I then changed to freeserve/wannadoo (actually worked very well most of the time no way near as bad as when it changed to Orange...) but the problem was still there, the problem is that the adsl light just flashes most of the time and it just seemed to sync randomly at different times of the day.
I assumed this problem was simply because i was to far from the exchange (most sites say i can't even get broadband).
The problem seemed to have gone away (about 10 mins ago before i posted this) when i simply removed the master BT socket plate and there was another socket behind this (thanks to reading posts on this thread), i plugged the filter into this and suddenly it synced and the adsl light was solid. I highly doubt this was a coincidence (normally to get it working i dial the phone/dialup modem and only sometimes it does the trick but other times its just pure coincidence as like i said, it HAS been random when it connects/disconnects.
If the broadband does disconnect and i can't get connected again then obviously this hasn't been the soloution but i am preety confident it should work properly now *touch wood*
This has actually been a major problem (contacted Orange technical support at least 25+ times, each time saying the same old bs check if phones are plugged in, restart computer, make a cup of tea and wait for the problem to fix it self, ect).
Infact i asked them what was the problem just 3 days ago and they said they were doing updates on the line (they actually said they were first doing updates on the line 5 months ago...) and that it would be fixed in 48 hours, for some reason if the line update has been taking 5 months and still not working i don't see the difference in what 48 hours could do and of course it was still not working 2-3 days later.
So to conclude this (amazingly) long post of my broadband life story, i am not sure if the people to blame really were Orange (there technical support staff didn't do them any favours).
Also thanks to JohnM. snow 2004, bobbear and anyone else i missed off (if the problem has been fixed ) and good luck in fixing your problem curleydave.
P.S I will post back if i am still desyncing for long periods but if i am i guess it is to do with the fact that i am to far from the exchange =\
When i DO get connected my speed is also 608K (this was after a update 5 months ago, which before then it was 512K).
However i don't think the problem i am having is Orange's fault as this problem happend when i first got broadband with Virgin (only had it for about 5 days because it never connected once).
I think Virgin use/used Datastream on some exchanges, so they may have been attempting to synch at 2Mbps and throttling you back to 0.5Mbps further upstream.
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I then changed to freeserve/wannadoo (actually worked very well most of the time no way near as bad as when it changed to Orange...) but the problem was still there, the problem is that the adsl light just flashes most of the time and it just seemed to sync randomly at different times of the day.
Yeah. If noise levels on your line/extension wiring were such that you could only synch intermittently at 576kbps, then it's going to be even worse at 608kbps.
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I assumed this problem was simply because i was to far from the exchange (most sites say i can't even get broadband).
You may need to be careful about escalating faults then. It's easy for a Openreach engineer to simply say that your line won't support ADSL. What does the BTw checker say:
The problem seemed to have gone away (about 10 mins ago before i posted this) when i simply removed the master BT socket plate and there was another socket behind this (thanks to reading posts on this thread), i plugged the filter into this and suddenly it synced and the adsl light was solid. I highly doubt this was a coincidence (normally to get it working i dial the phone/dialup modem and only sometimes it does the trick but other times its just pure coincidence as like i said, it HAS been random when it connects/disconnects.
To have a go at a tentative diagnosis: You being able to synch by using the phone suggests an HR fault. Being able to synch by swapping to the test socket suggests either that the HR fault is on your extension wiring or that there is also a second problem (faulty faceplate, noise pickup by extension wiring, unfiltered device,..)
Test 1 as mentioned earlier in the thread might help indicate if there's an HR line fault. Also comparing line stats (bobbear gave a useful link earlier in the thread) at the test socket when the phone has been disconnected for several hours and when you're in the middle of a long phone call might help.
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This has actually been a major problem (contacted Orange technical support at least 25+ times, each time saying the same old bs check if phones are plugged in, restart computer, make a cup of tea and wait for the problem to fix it self, ect).
Poss difficult to diagnose for them, particularly if you have 2 probs. Disappointing though that they didn't mention the test socket in 25 calls.
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P.S I will post back if i am still desyncing for long periods but if i am i guess it is to do with the fact that i am to far from the exchange =\
I hope you won't mind if I ask if you'll let us know anyway. I think many people reading this thread might be interested to know if your synch problems have been fixed and also if your line speed has improved.
Regards.
Disappointing though that they didn't mention the test socket in 25 calls.
Thats a no go area actually. Asking a customer to mess with a BT Master socket and start unscrewing things is simply something they're not supposed to suggest.
My internet has been working perfectly (at 608k), i haven't disconected once or had to wait for hours for the adsl to sync, i am so happy that it actually works correctly now (even if the speed isn't as fast as it should be)
Here are the results from the BT Wholesale|avalibility site:
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Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that it is VERY UNLIKELY you will be able to receive 512Kbps or 256Kbps broadband service due to the very long length of your telephone line. However, your order will be accepted if you still wish to order. An engineer may need to visit who will, where possible, supply the broadband service.
Our test also indicates that your line should be able to support a potential ADSL Max broadband line rate of 250Kbps or greater.
The actual ADSL Max line rate supportable will be determined during the first 10 days of use, after which time the highest stable rate possible will be set.
If you decide to place an order, a further test will be performed to confirm if your line is suitable for the service you wish to purchase.
Thank you for your interest.
I am guessing this is why the 'upgrade' only boosted my orginal 512k speed to 608k and not the full 1mb+ or whatever speed it was meant to be upgraded to.
Anyway i really don't care about the speed as long as it keeps working
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) and good luck in fixing your problem curleydave.
