After many years with Freeserve, Wanadoo and then Orange I decided to change ISP. Got my MAC and set up with BT. I also cancelled my direct debit after the change made last month.
Recently had email from Orange saying my account suspended and I owed money plus a £2.00 late payment fee and that I could clear all this up by telephoning a 0844 number - charged at 5.1p per minute BT landline. I assumed that this may be an oversight/lack of communication internally on their part as the changed made a month ago. As this email a no reply one and having experienced being kept on the phone for long periods in the past and paying for the privelege I decided to ignore this email.
I had a telephone call from someone to tell my MAC had not been used and my account was still active. I explained that my MAC must have been used as for the last month I have been with BT for my ISP and have not used any Orange services. I was told that BT had not informed them of the change!! It was requested that I phone another Orange number (freephone this time!) to clear this up.
On phoning the number I was told that as BT had not notified Orange I owed money amounting to around £35 for the period after my starting date with new ISP.
This evening I received a call saying that I did owe money and the fact is that the amount is due past the start date with my new provider. I informed the lady that as far as I was concerned that I had ended my service correctly and the fact that AFAIK there is no real contract with Orange other than a monthly one.
I did explain that I of course accept that payment may be due up till the date of change and would pay this however I did not believe it fair or correct to expect me to pay for a period past the date of actual change.
I was then referred to contract terms and conditions which supposedly state 14 days payment for contract termination. My argument that I do not feel there is a contract other than on a monthly basis fell on deaf ears and I was warned (politely) if I did not pay this would be put into the hands of debt collectors and I would get many calls from Orange collection department. I was asked to phone another number which I refused (I will not waste time or money chasing this via the phone) instead requesting that all this needs to be put into writing and then I would respond properly in due course.
Finally my questions Am I being unreasonable in expecting to pay up to the actual date of change rather than any longer period (particularly as I feel any contract is on a rolling monthly term)?
With any ISP, whenever a M.A.C. is used, you should give the losing ISP notice of contract cancellation according to the Terms and Conditions.
It is not the responsibility of the gaining ISP to notify the losing ISP that migration has occurred.
Orange don't act on notification from the customer, which I gave them in my case!
In any event this is not what Orange say, nor what is quoted in their terms and conditions:
11.12 Where BT or another Network Operator notifies us that you have requested them to transfer the Service(s) we may
treat that as 14 days notice from you to terminate this Agreement. In those circumstances the Service(s) may cease
straight away (in accordance with industry migration processes). You will have to pay any outstanding Charges including
up to the end of the 14 day period or to the end of any applicable Minimum Period (whichever is the longer).
21.2 In order to transfer your Service to a different provider you need to request a MAC Code from us that you should give
to your new broadband provider. You can request to receive the MAC Code by email or letter. We aim to provide the MAC
Code to you within 5 working days of your contacting us. A MAC Code expires after 30 days of issue. We can only provide
a new MAC Code once the previous one has expired. The request of a MAC Code does not immediately cancel your
account.
21.3 When you terminate your Agreement and after the Minimum Period has expired [b]the termination is subject to 14 days'
notice that will be applied to your account when the MAC Code is used. [b]
Orange MAC guidance:
here’s how the MAC process works:
call 0844 873 8586 - Lines are open 7am-11pm, 7 days a week (calls are charged at national rate and may be monitored for training purposes).
write to us: Customer Care, Orange, PO Box 486, Rotherham, S63 5ZX
2. We’ll then send you your MAC by letter or email within 5 working days.
3. Get in touch with your new service provider and give them your MAC. While they’re moving you across, you can carry on using your Orange broadband service as normal.
4. Your new service provider will contact us to let us know they’ve got the code.
5. We’ll then cancel your Orange broadband account, which will take 14 days from when your new broadband provider tells us you have used the MAC.
[Aren't the MACs generated by and notices issued automatically by the OpenReach (BT) computer systems to both the gaining and loosing ISP simultaneously? (How would either know otherwise?) Certainly when I moved the phone line from Orange, which I had to do before using my MAC, I was copied in from my new provider's computer systems on the automatically generated e-mail correspondence from OR committing and then confirming the transfer].
I'm making a complaint to the ISPA following an unsuccessful complaint to Orange (which should be made first) and if still not resolved on a second complaint it will then go through the formal arbitration process. The advantage of ISPA is it has to be considered by a nominated complaints officer within Orange, and they have to respond within 5 working days.
B.T., who administer the M.A.C. issuing system, make available online a record of migrations for ISPs to access.......some do access it in a timely fashion, others don't even bother.
The advice generally given on all broadband forums is for the customer to notify the losing ISP to end the contract.
If this is not done then the customer is likely to continue to be billed by the losing ISP and be involved in a lot of hassle like having to contact the ISPA.
What you don't do, is assume the gaining ISP will contact the losing ISP to inform of the migration....this just does not happen.....and if you do assume this then you will be involved in ongoing "discussions" with the ISPs.
As far as I was concerned I did not actually have to do anything after requesting my MAC so I did not officially notify. Having checked my emails again I had 2 messages from Orange both confirming that no further action required on my part
Quote:
once you've given your MAC code to your new provider you don't need to do anything, we'll be notified when you ve successfully moved and we'll automatically close your Orange broadband account.
Your broadband account will stay open with us until your new provider tells us that you've been successfully moved and then we'll close your broadband account for you. We'll send an email to your Orange and preferred email addresses confirming your account has been closed.
So it seems to me that either BT did not actually notify Orange or if they did this notification was not acted on. I do find it rather strange that in speaking to Orange that they do actually have a record of the exact date the change was made. How do they know this exact date without this provided by either myself or BT - they claim BT not informed them and I certainly did not?
If I was the cynical type I might think that it would be convenient for a company to gain added income by ignoring closing account notification and still keep taking money by the DD process - perhaps it is lucky that I cancelled my DD.
What I definetely do not like is to be threatened (however politely) with, 'we will be chasing you via our collections department, if you do not pay we will send debt collectors around etc.
It does seem however that it is written into the contract that account closure will occur 14 days after notification - I may have to just accept that. On the other hand did these terms apply when I first moved onto the broadband contract and got my Livebox quite a few years ago? AFAIK I have not entered into any new contract since starting I have just rolled over my original agreement on a month by month basis.
Perhaps I am just being bloody minded here but while the amount is actually relatively small there is a point in my mind of principle - I do not expect to be treated as an idiot or threatened or conned. I believe I treat others including companies I deal with courtesy and respect and expect the same courtesy and respect to be returned to me
So it seems to me that either BT did not actually notify or if they did this notification was not acted on. I do find it rather strange that in speaking to 0range that they do actually have a record of the exact date the change was made. How do they know this exact date without this provided by either myself or B.T. - they claim B.T. not informed them and I certainly did not?
Because 0range access the BT online database which shows the migration details. That is the correct procedure, BT do not directly contact the losing ISP, they only make the migration details available to them.
Joined: 13 Nov 2009Posts: 408Location: South East Essex
0range have been quite aggressive with debt collection in the past judging by posts I've seen on this forum.
You might be wise to pay & then chase for refunds so avoiding the severe hassle that you get with debt collection. If they're wrong then 0range will pay up I'm sure.
I know that's easy for me to say and honestly I'm not sure exactly what I'd do in the same situation.
Because 0range access the BT online database which shows the migration details. That is the correct procedure, BT do not directly contact the losing ISP, they only make the migration details available to them.
Thank you for the explanation. While this does make sense relating to how Orange knew about the correct change date it does not explain why I am being told by Orange telephone staff that BT have not informed them of the changeover when it is obvious that this is not the way it works - in one case I was told to contact BT. Surely Orange must know the way that BT operates and act accordingly. Whatever method is employed to get the information they know that the account is closed. Instead it would appear that after advising the customer that they do not need to do anything further they keep the account open and charging for it in full knowledge that the gaining ISP will not be notifying them! I can only assume until such time as the customer realises that they are still paying for an ISP they no longer use!
tinytim, thanks for the advice. I am willing to pay for service I have used but am unwilling to pay additional fees for sevice not received after the official change date. I have paid Orange over £20 per month for the past several years for Broadband and VOIP services. Due to being told over the phone that I owed first over £40 then over £30 then over £20 and then being asked to phone yet another Orange number (refused to take that one), I have requested that they send to me in writing the exact charges with a breakdown. Once this is received and assuming I am in agreement I will honour any debt I have incurred.
Also I think you need to appreciate that within the 0range broadband operations (I don't know if it's the same in their mobile phone operations) it would seem that their Accounts dept does not talk or otherwise communicate with any other 0range depts and probably vice versa.....a recipe for disaster.
Just out of interest I've now had an explanation from Orange after threatening them with an ISPA complaint:
1. They didn't act on my notification of my transfer on 4th August but when they "gained confirmation" (as they put it) on 8th August (which happens to be my monthly invoice date: a coincidence). Do they perhaps only check the BT database on billing dates?
2. They didn't inform me as they say they do but say they closed my account after 14 days (on 22nd August) as they put it "in accordance with our terms and conditions". By the way on the website you can see these going back to 2009 (I joined them in 2007 so am under the 2009 conditions) - and they all seem to say the same thing in this respect. (I suppose they treat the half month rental as their "admin costs" which they're entitled to recover on termination under Ofcom migration rules). I can still access my account on-line though, which left me confused in the absence of any communication from Orange.
3. They make any pro-rata refund of the last months charge on the next payment date.
4. They state they do not refer matters to debt collection agencies until after 16 weeks (which would give enough time to pursue arbitation which they say requires the dispute to have been unresolved for 8 weeks).
Possibly there might be a lesson here to plan your migration a few days before your billing date if you want to minimise the time you're paying for two services?
The key point for me is that the Orange t&c say the 14 day broadband termination period is applied "when the MAC Code is used". That means the migration date NOT some time later when Orange find out. It's a principle of contract law that a term (if unclear, and of course I say it isn't) is construed against the party with the benefit i.e. Orange in this case. They drafted the contract terms and should have said what they meant. So if you want to I think you can argue this point, which wasn't worth it in my case for 4 days worth of a £15 monthly payment for phone rental, 2nd line and broadband!
_________________ Orange: more tricks, less treats?
...it would seem that their Accounts dept does not talk or otherwise communicate with any other 0range depts and probably vice versa.....a recipe for disaster.
Yes, this seems about right from the few calls I have had and the fact that I had been asked to phone another Orange department when I queried their figures. I agree it is a recipe for disaster hence me asking for them to actually put all this into writing so that we can finalise and draw a line under this.
merv wrote:
....The key point for me is that the Orange t&c say the 14 day broadband termination period is applied "when the MAC Code is used". That means the migration date NOT some time later when Orange find out. It's a principle of contract law that a term (if unclear, and of course I say it isn't) is construed against the party with the benefit i.e. Orange in this case. They drafted the contract terms and should have said what they meant. So if you want to I think you can argue this point, which wasn't worth it in my case for 4 days worth of a £15 monthly payment for phone rental, 2nd line and broadband!
Thanks for this information. I agree that I will probably have to accept the 14 day termination clause but I am waiting for confirmation of the actual cost which should IMO be around £10 - not the £35+ originally quoted.
Just an update have now resolved and properly closed the account. After hearing nothing since my last post here, today received a call about finalising the account with an amount I found acceptable of £14.50. Which seems fair and reasonable to me.
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Am I being unreasonable in expecting to pay up to the actual date of change rather than any longer period (particularly as I feel any contract is on a rolling monthly term)?
I might think that it would be convenient for a company to gain added income by ignoring closing account notification and still keep taking money by the DD process - perhaps it is lucky that I cancelled my DD.
