I'd like to know about that as well. My perfectly working 2mb line was 'upgraded' to 608kbs - Whats the story behind this and why is it ALWAYS a line fault?
It's a line fault as when it's something that needs to be investigated, settings changed remotely, physical access to the exchange or the line then that's what it's called. Simply it's an issue that cannot be dealt with directly so a fault or issue has to be raised so it can be looked into, it's just a misleading term for what it is.
Orange have carried out nine seperate line tests and always found a fault, they are just too stupid to fix it.
Oddly enough it only started happening when they started buggering around with the line and right now I have a broadband connection so I'm just fighting the helldesk drones in india.
LOL 9 Line tests!!! I don't care what anyone says, it doesn't take 9 line tests to find a problem. Does one take 9 eye tests to determine they need glasses? Its a fob-off ploy.
Your 608 problem isn't a line fault, its a inherent problem on the exchange you're on (this is covered in many threads throughout here). For them to correct this, they'll have to upgrade the exchange, when they do this like trying to predict lottery numbers.
A few seemed to have got results by kicking and screaming, they've probably funded the upgrade by sheer number of calls made to Customer services.
Treat yourself to a new ISP and leave Orange in a months time. Start looking at alternatives, many ex-orange users have recommendations. The stupidity Orange puts people through just isn't worth it.
Hi. Could you say a few words about 'speed capping'. How/why it is impossed, and more importantly, how/who get's it removed or raised?
Depends what kind of speed capping you are refering to. The traditional IPstream network could be phsically capped in the exchange to 2meg, 1meg, 512 and i also believe as low as 256k, although now adays it rarely gets capped this low as when you have such a long line the best way to attain a stable connection is to be move onto the MAX network (although its a pretty big issue to get this switched over with BT when requested as they often want to go down the "engineering route" this means sending it to the long line team who do various things including tryin to local a free copper pair to run you back to the exchange on) . This is because sometimes in the day you line "may" be able to handle a stable 1meg connection but as the network becomes more conjested if you are at the end of the line you line conditions will deteriorate and thus cut you connection as it cannot handle 1meg anymore. If on the max network at this point the connection speed would just but cut and you would get a stable connection on a lower speed.
On the Max/LLU network the maximum speed is set via a series of monitoring proceedures (RAMBO's and other things with stupid names) at the exchange which monitors attenuation, SNR etc etc and from this sets you maximum rate dynamically, so in theory you always have access to the fastest stable connection which is possible.
Hi. Could you say a few words about 'speed capping'. How/why it is impossed, and more importantly, how/who get's it removed or raised?
I'd like to know about that as well. My perfectly working 2mb line was 'upgraded' to 608kbs - Whats the story behind this and why is it ALWAYS a line fault?
Depends what kind of "upgrade" was performed. If you are were upgraded onto the LLU network then it may be the fact that this is pretty much what you'll end up getting. Just because in my opinion the LLU network just simply isnt as streamlined and well run as the IPStream network you were upgraded from. Now if you have been put on the LLU network there is a series of checks which will be done and then as you saying they have done a "line test" this basically means running the fault through a very bad faults system and waiting for it to come back. Basically it initially runs a "one shot check" which is a simple whoosh tesh which checks SNR, attenuation and identifies any immediate problems with this, if this flags up a problem it is sent off to NOC (network operations centre) who as far as we could ever tell sit there with a shredder and shred everything that comes thro and then perform a downgrade on the line. First downgrade 8>2meg, 2nd line test 2>1meg, 3rd line test 1>512k and then if the problem isnt fixed a "downgrade" is often performed back upto 2meg and so on. In theory a downgrade does often fix problems such as no sync but it seems a downgrade is performed no matter what problem is fed thro the faults system. Now a lot of the time with problems a BT engineer (openreach really as this is who is still responsible for the LLU infrastructure) needs to be sent out as problems can be with the main socket in a persons house, the line to the pole or nearest BT box, or a line issue (20/12, water issues etc). Now of all my time there or speaking to others there no-one has EVER seen as LLU fault in a status where an engineer can actually be booked.
Now to if its an IPstream fault. The process starts the same, you do all the setup diagnostics etc, and a fault is put through the faults system. This is sent of to BTW for diagnostics and 1 of about 3/4 things happens.
1)It flags up a know network issue/trouble ticket and this is the route of the problem and BT are already dealing with this
2)It flags a possible problem and an engineer is dispatches to the exchange (fixes about 10/20% of problems)
3)It comes back saying the circuit is in sync on reported NSC and that the issue should be resolved directly (sending new equipment is a usual fix)
4)It comes back the circuit isnt is sync and there is a possible fault which cant be identified and an engineer can be booked "via your usual systems"
Now step 4 is when it gets interesting. What should happen idealy is the Orange agent updates the fault back to BT who update the faults system and an engineer can then be booked. What actually happens is the fault is updated to BT and it never comes back allowing an engineer to be booked. This is a fundamental problem with the faults system that is used and i have only seen a handful of cases which have ever gone through correctly and an engineer booked. Now if this is the case the fault will remain there for 5days until BT clear it at their end and close it. Now in this time it is possible to call BT and book an engineer through them and this isnt really a problem, although it is made a problem as at the contact centre I worked in no-one was allowed to contact BT so basically engineers could never be booked. Now this to me is ludacris as if you have completed all the diagnostics and still have a problem and BT are saying an engineer is needed, then any number of line tests is never going to fix this problem. A LINE TEST NEVER FIXES A PROBLEM SOMEONE SOMEWHERE HAS TO ACT ON THIS INFORMATION TO GET THE ISSUE RESOLVED. So anyway yes Orange staff in my centre could categorically not call BT even though in 90% of cases this would get anegineer which WOULD fix the problem.
Now when I left I was working for a second line tech team and we had access to BT system in which we could log faults which actually worked to book engineers and also when needed we could call BT to follow things up and get things progressed. It got the point where we did diagnostics on day1 and logged fault with BT, day2 BT had performed their diagnostics, day3 an engineer was at the cmr's home and either the problem was solved or it was forwarded to another engineer to resolve. We were solving problems that had been going on for months in a day or 2 as literally we COULD get engineers sorted, it truely was laughable, and did anyone at Orange care about this major failing in their faults system???you can guess yourself at this one.
And because Orange dont run their own contact centres and they are contracted out to other call centres the "managers" in these centres, "managers" used as loosely as possible, then they are not interested in actually resolving problems. All they are intertested in is hitting their targets which include, average call time, having no call ques, answering calls as fast as possible and adhering to a call structure correctly. It was often the case that the best agents at these centre were the ones always getting flack from managers because they actually took the extra time to try and help cmrs and not just fob them off in 5minutes.
Sorry its a bit of an epic read. Hope it makes sense because im too lazy to go back and read it again
I have just got Orange broadband about a month ago.
It worked ok but then just cut off 2 weeks ago and hasent worked since. The little light with an @ on it is flashing. Ive called in a few times and spoke too 3 different agents. Two of them said the line was at fault and id be called back wehn it was fixed. The third however stated it was electrical interference and that my Livebox has to be at leasts 10 feet away from any other electrical devices!
Is that true!
Not true, other electrical devices can put out some RF interference which can mess with your wireless but it definately wouldnt mean you would lose sync (I'm just guessing here that you have a fast @light (4 times a second) and not a slow flashing @ light). Well not entirely true, I did have on case where an old VCR 3 doors up from the cmr was messing with the signal but that was a bit of a strange one and never seen much like that b4.
Basically means your livebox isnt sync'ing up to your local exchange, in leighmans terms it cant find the Broadband signal on your line. Can be a number of things (setup, knackered filters, line issues exchange issues). Most common reason is a fault on the line which is where all the fun and games start. To confirm if it is the line the best thing to do is to unplug everything from your phone sockets, move your LB to the master socket and plug it in with a single filter and nothing else plugged in. If this stops the fast @ then it was your setup, extentions, filters or some kind of internal wiring. If you still get the sameissues it means there an external problem out of your control (Long lines, PCP boxes, exchange problems etc etc) in which case it would be Orange who would have to deal with this thro magdelene, BTW, openreach etc etc.
I just did this and when I swapped the filters and when I powered it back up the Livebox exploded and smoked, so I poured a nearby kiwi smoothie on it to put it out. Now Orange wont give me a new livebox due to the smoothie been poured on it. What can I do now!
Hi. Could you say a few words about 'speed capping'. How/why it is impossed, and more importantly, how/who get's it removed or raised?
Depends what kind of speed capping you are refering to. The traditional IPstream network could be phsically capped in the exchange to 2meg, 1meg, 512 and i also believe as low as 256k, although now adays it rarely gets capped this low as when you have such a long line the best way to attain a stable connection is to be move onto the MAX network (although its a pretty big issue to get this switched over with BT when requested as they often want to go down the "engineering route" this means sending it to the long line team who do various things including tryin to local a free copper pair to run you back to the exchange on) . This is because sometimes in the day you line "may" be able to handle a stable 1meg connection but as the network becomes more conjested if you are at the end of the line you line conditions will deteriorate and thus cut you connection as it cannot handle 1meg anymore. If on the max network at this point the connection speed would just but cut and you would get a stable connection on a lower speed.
On the Max/LLU network the maximum speed is set via a series of monitoring proceedures (RAMBO's and other things with stupid names) at the exchange which monitors attenuation, SNR etc etc and from this sets you maximum rate dynamically, so in theory you always have access to the fastest stable connection which is possible.
Hope that makes sense
Thanks for that.
To be specific, I'm on the Chipping Sodbury exchange which is LLU.
The reason I asked the capping question (or should it just be called a restriction) is that since the last major fault was fixed 3 weeks ago (no BB signal at all 'link down'), my livebox reports a downstream rate of 1152 (used to be 4608) and my SNR jumped from 10db to 30db. The attainable rate is a nice 7M, always has been. So I know I have (had) a line that can run at a stable 4M (did do for weeks), but I can't get Orange to lift the restriction.
I'm stuck in a '5 working day' cycle. TS say that they have escalated my request but the 'fault' has not been cleared or removed from their system, so they can't do any further work until it is cleared/removed. Stuck! Any suggestions, apart from ditch Orange?
From what I've read and from the settings changes that I've had to make, it seems clear to me that whatever changes Orange have been making, those changes have not been compatible with many of our current settings.
Therefore we have had to change our MTU+RWIN settings, use specific DNS and IP addresses etc etc to make our computers compatible with their equipment.......nothing new, in fact similar to an intial set up routine with a new ISP. But Orange, because of their lack of skills in problem-solving, have been helpless.
Very few if any of Orange "technical" suggestions have produced improvements.
There's been more pro-active problem-solving happening on this site than in the whole of the France-Telecom Group.
Hi. Could you say a few words about 'speed capping'. How/why it is impossed, and more importantly, how/who get's it removed or raised?
Depends what kind of speed capping you are refering to. The traditional IPstream network could be phsically capped in the exchange to 2meg, 1meg, 512 and i also believe as low as 256k, although now adays it rarely gets capped this low as when you have such a long line the best way to attain a stable connection is to be move onto the MAX network (although its a pretty big issue to get this switched over with BT when requested as they often want to go down the "engineering route" this means sending it to the long line team who do various things including tryin to local a free copper pair to run you back to the exchange on) . This is because sometimes in the day you line "may" be able to handle a stable 1meg connection but as the network becomes more conjested if you are at the end of the line you line conditions will deteriorate and thus cut you connection as it cannot handle 1meg anymore. If on the max network at this point the connection speed would just but cut and you would get a stable connection on a lower speed.
On the Max/LLU network the maximum speed is set via a series of monitoring proceedures (RAMBO's and other things with stupid names) at the exchange which monitors attenuation, SNR etc etc and from this sets you maximum rate dynamically, so in theory you always have access to the fastest stable connection which is possible.
Hope that makes sense
Thanks for that.
To be specific, I'm on the Chipping Sodbury exchange which is LLU.
The reason I asked the capping question (or should it just be called a restriction) is that since the last major fault was fixed 3 weeks ago (no BB signal at all 'link down'), my livebox reports a downstream rate of 1152 (used to be 4608) and my SNR jumped from 10db to 30db. The attainable rate is a nice 7M, always has been. So I know I have (had) a line that can run at a stable 4M (did do for weeks), but I can't get Orange to lift the restriction.
I'm stuck in a '5 working day' cycle. TS say that they have escalated my request but the 'fault' has not been cleared or removed from their system, so they can't do any further work until it is cleared/removed. Stuck! Any suggestions, apart from ditch Orange?
Most likely what will have happened is they will have logged a fault for you problem when you reported it. Now one of the first things that happens when a fault is processed esp if there is an increase in attenuation is that a downgrade is automatically performed to 2meg. From working there we never found anyone capable/willing to put a upgrade back tho to increase the speed as we were always told be our provisions/fault manager that the downgrde had been performed for a reason even if it appears that it hasnt (which i hazard a guess is the majority of cases) That would be the most obvious thing i could think of. Or it could just be the company wide slow speed issue which is being experienced at the moment. When I left we had no info as to what the problem was or when it would be fixed
It was often the case that the best agents at these centre were the ones always getting flack from managers because they actually took the extra time to try and help cmrs and not just fob them off in 5minutes.
And that, I daresay, is the crux of the problem. The wrong targets. (And I daresay this goes for a lot of companies, not just Orange.)
We, the customers, think the target should be the caller's problem being sorted in the first phonecall.
They, the employer, think the target is to get the caller off the line as quickly as possible.
So the staff that end up being 'good' at their job, are the ones who can get the caller off the line ASAP. And they go on to train the next batch of staff, and pretty soon, it won't even occur to anyone that maybe there's another way.
There's a famous story that describes this pretty well, which I found a copy of here:
It was often the case that the best agents at these centre were the ones always getting flack from managers because they actually took the extra time to try and help cmrs and not just fob them off in 5minutes.
And that, I daresay, is the crux of the problem. The wrong targets. (And I daresay this goes for a lot of companies, not just Orange.)
We, the customers, think the target should be the caller's problem being sorted in the first phonecall.
They, the employer, think the target is to get the caller off the line as quickly as possible.
So the staff that end up being 'good' at their job, are the ones who can get the caller off the line ASAP. And they go on to train the next batch of staff, and pretty soon, it won't even occur to anyone that maybe there's another way.
There's a famous story that describes this pretty well, which I found a copy of here:
Spot on John and because the contact centre work is contracted out to 3rd party companies those companies realistically couldnt give 2 hoots about Orange and Orange staff aslong as they hit their "targets" which are set by Orange.
The AHT (Average handling time) targets set by Orange give technical support about enough time to DPA the cmr and establish what the problem is. After that you are usually over you average handling time. Especially when you think I was doing calls with some cmrs on 2nd line which maybe took a good 2 hours to get the problem fixed. Most people wouldnt be interested in this because if they did they would have crap stats, their reviews by team leaders would get them into sh*t and finally it means they wouldnt get payrises and wouldnt progress anywhere and all because you wanted to help someone out. Its a lot easier to just fob people off.
Joined: 13 Aug 2006Posts: 1689Location: Marylebone Central London
What a way to run a company and going by many forums people are realising this, its a shame that people new to broadband will not know this and will fall for Oranges false advertising how they are getting away with it is disgraceful.
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