Ok, to clear a path for everyone who believes that suing Orange would cost a fortune and so on I have decided to detail my fight with them here.
On the First of February 2007 I sent the following email to the executive office, (executive.office@orange.co.uk), and copied in customer services, (customer-service@uk.orange.com).
Quote:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I have encountered problems clearing the balance on my account since September 2006, (in so much as you kept trying to take money from the wrong bank account at considerable expense to me months after i'd informed you of my new details. Further to this I called almost weekly trying to pay by credit card and was told at several junctures that, 'It will be cleared in the morning', 'It will clear next Wednesday', 'We don't take credit cards', 'It will clear on the 5th of the month', 'We don't have supervisors', 'We have supervisors but they don't have phones', 'There is no-one in Orange PLC more senior than me' etc...).
This has recently been cleared up and on 29th January 2007 I was 'upgraded' to your ADSL Max service.
Since the upgrade my line profile from BTwholesale has been downgraded to 1/20 of the speed I previously recieved. This can be rectified by Btwholesale simply resetting the line profile and allowing the system to stabilise.
However, after calling your 'technical' support team on 5 occasions I have been fobbed off with shoddy excuses and absolutely shocking incompetence. This has ranged from a gentleman in India who was unable to understand me well enough to hear my telephone number correctly to a lady who insisted I download optimisers for hardware I repeatedly told her I don't have.
I know what the problem is with my service, I know how to remedy it, and I know who needs to remedy it. Sadly, your technical support department refuse listen and doggedly remain on script throughout each conversation.
My proposals to conclude this matter:-
Within the next 7 days you must either:-
Have rectified the situation with my line profile and provide the service to which I have subscribed.
or,
Confirm in writing that I am to be released from my contract as the minimum 12 month period has been rendered void by Schedule 2 Section 1(o) of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 and various sections within The Sale and Supply of Goods, 1994.
If you do not respond or do not respond positively within the next 7 days, I reserve the right to commence legal proceedings in order to obtain release from the contract without further notice. In such an event I will also be reclaiming any associated costs for bringing the claim, (currently £150), along with all costs incurred by me due to your inability to collect monies from the correct account after having been notified of the change in writing. If you are unsure of your responsibilities may I recommend consultation with your legal council.
Within 2 days my speed had been restored and all was well with the world.
Since then my speed has been slowly deteriorating up until tonight where i'm recieving less than 1/2 meg.
I've had enough.
Tonight I will send them another letter, (I will need to show a court I've given them reasonable time to rectify the issue), giving them a further 7 days.( I will post it here once i've composed it.
I am going to do it a slightly different way to that outlined in my initial letter, I'm going to pay the contract off once the 7 days is up and then pursue them for the money i've paid since January, (when I recieved the upgrade that broke my service). The main benefit here is that a non-monetary claim costs £150 at small claims court, where a claim for less than £300 costs £30.
I have had several PM's in regard to my previous postings and unfortunately can't answer them all, however, if you have questions on the statutes and laws on which I am relying, feel free to post them here and I will answer where I can so everybody can see.
Please be aware that I am not a legal professional and if I offer any advice it is up to you whether you choose to act upon it. This process, (in theory), is fairly straightforward but don't underestimate the fact that you would be taking a multinational communications company to court.
Please find attatched a copy of a letter sent to both yourselves and your executive office on the 1st February 2007.
Although I recieved a slight improvement in the service on the 3rd February 2007, my service has now returned to below 1/2Mb.
Please rectify this problem before 28th February 2007 or I will have no option but to commence proceedings as outlined in my previous communications.
Further, as is my right under The Data Protection Act 1998, (section 7), please supply me with any data you hold which relates to me or through which I could be identified, including, but not limited to: copies of any executed agreements, transcripts or recordings of telephone calls, statement information billing information etc...
If you cannot supply these documents because no such documents exist, then please be kind enough to indicate this in your reply.
I authorise you charge the £10 maximum statutory payment for this service to my account. If you require any further proof as to my identity please let me know by return, however, be aware that this email address is one through which you have previously conducted my personal business.
I don't fancy your chances of getting the transcripts. On 5 separate occasions when I called Orange I told them from the outset "they do not have my authorisation to record the call, nor to use my name, previous recordings etc. in any improvement or training activities".
Their response was "We have no control over this and cannot verify whether the call is recorded. My continuing the call is my acceptance of their terms.
The next time I rang I told them "My costs for sorting this problem out are £50 per hour". As far as I'm concerned their continuing the call was their acceptance of my terms and conditions, and I continue to pursue this. Thankfully, I'm Orange free now, so they have no threat to hang over me. I can take all the time I need.
You're right, I don't think for a second i'll get them.
This is just to cover myself if they then later rely on a telephone conversation as some part of their defence. This way I can ask why they haven't provided me with transcripts of these calls when, (if they exist), they are legally obliged to do so.
Can I just make you aware, that should Orange fail to adhere to full disclosure of information held, including but not limited to contracts, electronic information, balance statements, telephone recordings etc, you can and should report them to the Information Commissioner's Office.
This government body enforces adherence to the Data Protection Act 1998, and will - upon submission of a brief written complaint from you - force the company (Orange) to adhere to your request and will possibly fine them.
Section 7(1) of the Data Protection Act 1998 allows you full uninhibited access to all data held about yourself, whether printed or electronic (including that held on microfiche). The Act provides 40 days (including weekends and bank holidays) for the company to comply.
To deny any legitimate request made under these terms is unlawful.
Good luck!
I think Orange are going to be VERY busy with court cases !!!
Its about time THEY paid back all the money they have taken for providing no service whatsoever... they are a complete joke and need taking to task BIG TIME.
Have you notice, they force you to call instead of answer emails, as email are legally binding and can be used as evidence.
Well, they've got till Friday to release me then I'll get them.
As I design and maintain Call Centre PBX's I have a lovely tool at my disposal, call recording. I can activate call recording and save as MP3 or wav in real time. As it will be tied to a call log, I can publish the log along with the call, to prove it's not a hoax.
Will I use this in court? Maybe or....
maybe I'll just post it on YouTube and the likes....
Joined: 10 Aug 2006Posts: 47Location: Hampshire, UK
StuReeves wrote:
Have you notice, they force you to call instead of answer emails, as email are legally binding and can be used as evidence.
Well, they've got till Friday to release me then I'll get them.
As I design and maintain Call Centre PBX's I have a lovely tool at my disposal, call recording. I can activate call recording and save as MP3 or wav in real time. As it will be tied to a call log, I can publish the log along with the call, to prove it's not a hoax.
Will I use this in court? Maybe or....
maybe I'll just post it on YouTube and the likes....
Watch this space.
Hi,
not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure both parties need to be aware that the call is being recorded for it to be suitable as evidence in court Be interesting to see if that effects the level of response you get.
The only email replies you tend to get from these people all say the same thing..."we are unable to reply directly to you"... "you need to telephone ... blah blah blah".... ive sent them speed tests taken over 5 days and STILL no response other than the normal "call this number"
As ive said a number of times already in here their Customer Service AND their Technical Support are both a waste of money, space, and time, but i know one thing.....
Orange will be making a LOT of money out of their 0870 numbers..greedy,uncaring. ......... b****rds !!!
Keith, thats taking it a BIT far isnt it !!! lmao ... are you joking? .... Orange DONT KNOW HOW to get their system up to speed... i think after all these months that has become BLATANTLY obvious mate dont you think?lol...
none of them have a clue how to solve ANY of the problems in here....
or perhaps someone from Orange can comment on what exactly they HAVE fixed?
I cant see this thread getting a lot of response from Orange can you?
As I design and maintain Call Centre PBX's I have a lovely tool at my disposal, call recording. I can activate call recording and save as MP3 or wav in real time. As it will be tied to a call log, I can publish the log along with the call, to prove it's not a hoax.
Will I use this in court? Maybe or....
maybe I'll just post it on YouTube and the likes....
As far as I can tell you can record calls whenever you like but if you're going to provide them to a 3rd party, lawyer/judge/youtube, then both sides have to agree to the recording and usually when you call Orange they will decline.
Apologies for delays, I haven't been able to get online, (not Oranges fault, my PC exploded).
Elhana, this is exactly right. However, there is nothing to stop you transcribing this call or referring back to it at a later date.
Stu, to be fair to them they have replied to my email. See below.
Rainmaker, thanks for the help. Unfortunately the ICO are the most weak-wiled, toadying, toothless office this side of the FSA and the Financial Ombudsman. They have cosied up to industry in a way that beggars belief.
Thanks for your email dated 1 February 2007. I?m sorry for the delay in
getting back to you.
I?m sorry to hear that you?ve had problems with both your billing and
connection speed. We are now collecting payment from your account
without any problems. The details appear to have been updated when
requested, but the outstanding balance on the account was not cleared
causing further problems, and the system to not recognise that you?d
supplied new details.
You?re currently on Broadband Max at £17.99 per month. The speed you
actually connect at is dependent upon the quality of the telephone line,
capacity of the exchange and other factors. We have provisioned your
telephone line on the BT ADSL max service, so you can connect on the
highest possible speed. The speed you will be contacting on you
should?ve been determined by 9 February; for the first 10 days BT
monitor and change the connection speed to find the most suitable for
you.
If you are still experiencing any speed or billing issues please email
offer.acceptance@uk.orange.com quoting /RAL in the subject line, and
providing full details of the problem. I?ve applied 2 free months to
your account to apologise for the length of time it?s taken to address
this issue.
Then I recieved this one on 27/02/2007:-
Quote:
Dear Jimfishybob,
Thank you for your email.
We appologise for the delay in getting back to you.
Unfortunately we're unable to open attachments due to the risk of
viruses. Please supply the information within the main body text of your
email and we will try to be of further assistance.
If you have any further queries then please do not hesitate to get in
contact with us again.
Kind Regards
Clearly there are some communications issues in this communications company. Not least the fact that I have been charged this month despite being offered 2 months free.
I need to consider my next move, the slight fly in this ointment is that there's nothing wrong with my connection at the moment and any case I brought would fall apart on that basis.
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Be interesting to see if that effects the level of response you get.
